Repository per citation

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Repository per citation

Sebastian Schubert
Hi all

I've been interpreting the source -- citation pair in such a way that
source can represent a rather general object such as a specific civil
registry office and their documents, and citation is a specific entry
for a particular person or marriage.

Now, I would like to use the repositories more. In particular, I want to
store the information that I own a certain document myself (repository
Sebastian's Box) or, more importantly, where I got the document from
(repository Aunt Mary). However, as far as I can see, one can only
assign one repository to the whole source including all citations. I
could artificially split the sources in such a way that I could use
different repositories but that would make the things too complicated
and confusing.

Therefore, I propose to make the repositories more flexible in such a
way that the user can add single citations to a repository. What do you
think? Does this make things too untidy? If it is fine in principle, I
will open an official feature request in the bug tracker.

Thanks a lot!
Sebastian


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Re: Repository per citation

StoltHD
In Gramps 5.x you can have multiple repositories to each source, and you can add notes to each of them, so you can add yourself and you Aunt Mary and just make a Note with a Internal Link for the Different Citations,

So you can actually already register a sources on multiple repositories and define the citations (document part) for for each repository by using Notes.

Just copy the name of the citation to a Note for the Repository, and then mark it and create a Internal Citation Link to the given Citation (not needed, but a great feature)

When you create a Repository Reference Link from a Source, you can add Notes both to the Reference Link and to the Shared Information part... 



ons. 26. jun. 2019 kl. 08:29 skrev Sebastian Schubert <[hidden email]>:
Hi all

I've been interpreting the source -- citation pair in such a way that
source can represent a rather general object such as a specific civil
registry office and their documents, and citation is a specific entry
for a particular person or marriage.

Now, I would like to use the repositories more. In particular, I want to
store the information that I own a certain document myself (repository
Sebastian's Box) or, more importantly, where I got the document from
(repository Aunt Mary). However, as far as I can see, one can only
assign one repository to the whole source including all citations. I
could artificially split the sources in such a way that I could use
different repositories but that would make the things too complicated
and confusing.

Therefore, I propose to make the repositories more flexible in such a
way that the user can add single citations to a repository. What do you
think? Does this make things too untidy? If it is fine in principle, I
will open an official feature request in the bug tracker.

Thanks a lot!
Sebastian


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Re: Repository per citation

Brad Rogers
In reply to this post by Sebastian Schubert
On Wed, 26 Jun 2019 08:28:34 +0200
Sebastian Schubert <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello Sebastian,

>(repository Aunt Mary). However, as far as I can see, one can only
>assign one repository to the whole source including all citations. I

Sources can have multiple repositories (at least, in v5.x).  However, in
the real world, sources it's highly unusual to have things available
from more than one repository.

Be aware that although Ancestry, Find My Past, et al all have census
imagery, they *aren't* a repository for those data sets (IMO, anyway).
The real census papers are held at NARA (USA census) or TNA (England and
Wales census), so NARA and TNA would be the relevant repos.  Ancestry
(etc.) would be the source for the _image_ you download and attach to the
census event, not the event itself.

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         / )           "The blindingly obvious is
        / _)rad        never immediately apparent"
They said we'd be artistically free, but that was on a bit of paper
Complete Control - The Clash


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Re: Repository per citation

Dave Scheipers
In reply to this post by Sebastian Schubert
Hi Sebastian

There have been several threads regarding
Citations/Sources/Repositories and there are as many ways to organize
ones work as there are Gramps users.

Some things to keep in mind....

The repository information does not get added to the S/C printed in
reports. So totally hiding Aunt Mary in the repository may not always
work when creating the S/C record.

You do not say what Aunt Mary provided. She could provide an oral
recitation of family tradition. She is the source. But she could also
provide you with a scan of documents. So the Source could be "Birth
Certificate Scan". The image can also have its own source "Scan from
Aunt Mary". Uncle Jack could provide other scans.

So think of Repository as something for your own organizational use.
But because someone else may take over from you to keep the tree
growing, how you organize it needs to be able to makes sense to
someone else. And the same applies to how you organize the Sources and
Citations. Is there enough information between the two that the
database organization of the information is useful to you (or another
user) and that the resulting citation printed in reports conveys the
information that someone interested could find the same information.

So play around with various scenarios and print out various reports to
PDF to evaluate what and how is displayed as the citation.

HTH Dave

On Wed, Jun 26, 2019 at 2:29 AM Sebastian Schubert
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Hi all
>
> I've been interpreting the source -- citation pair in such a way that
> source can represent a rather general object such as a specific civil
> registry office and their documents, and citation is a specific entry
> for a particular person or marriage.
>
> Now, I would like to use the repositories more. In particular, I want to
> store the information that I own a certain document myself (repository
> Sebastian's Box) or, more importantly, where I got the document from
> (repository Aunt Mary). However, as far as I can see, one can only
> assign one repository to the whole source including all citations. I
> could artificially split the sources in such a way that I could use
> different repositories but that would make the things too complicated
> and confusing.
>
> Therefore, I propose to make the repositories more flexible in such a
> way that the user can add single citations to a repository. What do you
> think? Does this make things too untidy? If it is fine in principle, I
> will open an official feature request in the bug tracker.
>
> Thanks a lot!
> Sebastian
>
>
> --
> Gramps-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
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> https://gramps-project.org


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Re: Repository per citation

Sebastian Schubert
In reply to this post by Sebastian Schubert
Hi all

Thanks a lot for your input. Before I comment, I think I need to explain
my concrete case in more detail:

Civil registries are a main source of my information. They wrote one or
two pages in a book for each birth, death or marriage. So for each
registry office, I created one Source with title "Registry books" and
author "Registry office XYZ". A specific entry is now a Citation with
Volume/Page "Person ABC - Death entry" and the corresponding date of the
entry. A scan of the corresponding page(s) is attached.

During WWII many of the original documents got lost. Thus, I need to
rely on official copies of these books or personal certificates. In
particular, the latter includes less information than the full entry.
Nonetheless, I include also these somewhat derived entries in the
Source/Citation structure above to not make it unnecessarily complicated.

This worked quite well so far and is also quite clear, I think. I never
bothered to enter any repository because the documents are really
scattered and the repository information, in general, is of little use
for me. I do have a scan of everything.

However, now I realized that I want to store at least one piece of
information: from where I got the personal certificates. If aunt Mary
gives me a marriage certificate of Peter and Susan, and Peter and Susan
could be Mary's grand parents, I will assume that they really are Mary's
grand parents in unclear cases. So the source of this document is also
somewhat a (small) piece of evidence.

Another thing I would like to store in the database is which documents I
own in case anyone wants to touch them (with gloves ;) ).

My idea was to use the repository feature of gramps for that.

StoltHD wrote:
> So you can actually already register a sources on multiple
> repositories and define the citations (document part) for for each
> repository by using Notes.
>
> Just copy the name of the citation to a Note for the Repository, and
> then mark it and create a Internal Citation Link to the given
> Citation (not needed, but a great feature)

This means that the main piece of information is actually in the note
and not in the repository, right? In this case, I would just skip using
the repository and would attach a corresponding note to the citation
directly. Actually, this was my first approach. Then, however, I thought
using repositories is a cleaner approach.


Brad Rogers wrote:
> Sources can have multiple repositories (at least, in v5.x).  However, in
> the real world, sources it's highly unusual to have things available
> from more than one repository.

If I use the Source/Citation structure explained above, unfortunately,
the physical documents are quite scattered. My main idea is also to add
where a document was (aunt Mary).


Dave Scheipers wrote:
> So think of Repository as something for your own organizational use.
> But because someone else may take over from you to keep the tree
> growing, how you organize it needs to be able to makes sense to
> someone else. And the same applies to how you organize the Sources and
> Citations. Is there enough information between the two that the
> database organization of the information is useful to you (or another
> user) and that the resulting citation printed in reports conveys the
> information that someone interested could find the same information.

Yes, I agree this is very important. My source/citation structure seems
to work well. I will probably stick to attaching notes to citations for
now. However, this encodes something for that we actually have a main
feature in gramps...

Being more flexible with repositories would solve my issue. Would it
make things to complicated?


Thanks a lot for the input
Sebastian



Am 26.06.19 um 08:28 schrieb Sebastian Schubert:

> Hi all
>
> I've been interpreting the source -- citation pair in such a way that
>  source can represent a rather general object such as a specific
> civil registry office and their documents, and citation is a specific
> entry for a particular person or marriage.
>
> Now, I would like to use the repositories more. In particular, I want
> to store the information that I own a certain document myself
> (repository Sebastian's Box) or, more importantly, where I got the
> document from (repository Aunt Mary). However, as far as I can see,
> one can only assign one repository to the whole source including all
> citations. I could artificially split the sources in such a way that
> I could use different repositories but that would make the things too
> complicated and confusing.
>
> Therefore, I propose to make the repositories more flexible in such a
>  way that the user can add single citations to a repository. What do
> you think? Does this make things too untidy? If it is fine in
> principle, I will open an official feature request in the bug
> tracker.
>
> Thanks a lot! Sebastian


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Re: Repository per citation

StoltHD
No, the main information is in the Citation an Source, the obly info you write in the Note for the Repository is the Name of the Citation and a link to it...
Say you hace a pap of certification from a town hall, you make the "Normal" Source for the Archive and add the town hall as the repositorry because they still have the original book record there, but the handwritten original "copy" is in your Aunt Mary's safe, so you add a Repository for That handwirtten paper (original copy)... You then add a Note to the Repository where you only name rhe Citation where tou have added all the information and rhe image of rhat document, if you link to you can also add an internal link to that Cittion in rhis Repository Note, nothing else..
The Repository will show under the Source, but when you open the repository you will be able to see the Citations for the sources details  that is stored at orhwr sites...

I always add repositories of alø places where it can be possible ro view any copies of a source, and if its only a souce detail rhat can be found on a give place, I add a Note with a link to that particular Citation ( a citation is a refernce to a particular detail of a source)... And if I feel its important, i also add a Note for the Citation, a cross reference to that repository.

From: Sebastian Schubert <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2019 11:49:05 AM
To: gramps-users
Subject: Re: [Gramps-users] Repository per citation
 
Hi all

Thanks a lot for your input. Before I comment, I think I need to explain
my concrete case in more detail:

Civil registries are a main source of my information. They wrote one or
two pages in a book for each birth, death or marriage. So for each
registry office, I created one Source with title "Registry books" and
author "Registry office XYZ". A specific entry is now a Citation with
Volume/Page "Person ABC - Death entry" and the corresponding date of the
entry. A scan of the corresponding page(s) is attached.

During WWII many of the original documents got lost. Thus, I need to
rely on official copies of these books or personal certificates. In
particular, the latter includes less information than the full entry.
Nonetheless, I include also these somewhat derived entries in the
Source/Citation structure above to not make it unnecessarily complicated.

This worked quite well so far and is also quite clear, I think. I never
bothered to enter any repository because the documents are really
scattered and the repository information, in general, is of little use
for me. I do have a scan of everything.

However, now I realized that I want to store at least one piece of
information: from where I got the personal certificates. If aunt Mary
gives me a marriage certificate of Peter and Susan, and Peter and Susan
could be Mary's grand parents, I will assume that they really are Mary's
grand parents in unclear cases. So the source of this document is also
somewhat a (small) piece of evidence.

Another thing I would like to store in the database is which documents I
own in case anyone wants to touch them (with gloves ;) ).

My idea was to use the repository feature of gramps for that.

StoltHD wrote:
> So you can actually already register a sources on multiple
> repositories and define the citations (document part) for for each
> repository by using Notes.
>
> Just copy the name of the citation to a Note for the Repository, and
> then mark it and create a Internal Citation Link to the given
> Citation (not needed, but a great feature)

This means that the main piece of information is actually in the note
and not in the repository, right? In this case, I would just skip using
the repository and would attach a corresponding note to the citation
directly. Actually, this was my first approach. Then, however, I thought
using repositories is a cleaner approach.


Brad Rogers wrote:
> Sources can have multiple repositories (at least, in v5.x).  However, in
> the real world, sources it's highly unusual to have things available
> from more than one repository.

If I use the Source/Citation structure explained above, unfortunately,
the physical documents are quite scattered. My main idea is also to add
where a document was (aunt Mary).


Dave Scheipers wrote:
> So think of Repository as something for your own organizational use.
> But because someone else may take over from you to keep the tree
> growing, how you organize it needs to be able to makes sense to
> someone else. And the same applies to how you organize the Sources and
> Citations. Is there enough information between the two that the
> database organization of the information is useful to you (or another
> user) and that the resulting citation printed in reports conveys the
> information that someone interested could find the same information.

Yes, I agree this is very important. My source/citation structure seems
to work well. I will probably stick to attaching notes to citations for
now. However, this encodes something for that we actually have a main
feature in gramps...

Being more flexible with repositories would solve my issue. Would it
make things to complicated?


Thanks a lot for the input
Sebastian



Am 26.06.19 um 08:28 schrieb Sebastian Schubert:

> Hi all
>
> I've been interpreting the source -- citation pair in such a way that
>  source can represent a rather general object such as a specific
> civil registry office and their documents, and citation is a specific
> entry for a particular person or marriage.
>
> Now, I would like to use the repositories more. In particular, I want
> to store the information that I own a certain document myself
> (repository Sebastian's Box) or, more importantly, where I got the
> document from (repository Aunt Mary). However, as far as I can see,
> one can only assign one repository to the whole source including all
> citations. I could artificially split the sources in such a way that
> I could use different repositories but that would make the things too
> complicated and confusing.
>
> Therefore, I propose to make the repositories more flexible in such a
>  way that the user can add single citations to a repository. What do
> you think? Does this make things too untidy? If it is fine in
> principle, I will open an official feature request in the bug
> tracker.
>
> Thanks a lot! Sebastian


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Re: Repository per citation

Oliver Lehmann
In reply to this post by Sebastian Schubert
Hi Sebastian,


Sebastian Schubert <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Civil registries are a main source of my information. They wrote one or
> two pages in a book for each birth, death or marriage. So for each
> registry office, I created one Source with title "Registry books" and
> author "Registry office XYZ". A specific entry is now a Citation with
> Volume/Page "Person ABC - Death entry" and the corresponding date of the
> entry. A scan of the corresponding page(s) is attached.

I would have one source for each book at the office instead of one  
source for all books from this particular office. So I would have  
"Civil Registry Birth Register Breslau 1891, Part 1" for the 1st Book  
containing all Births with the register number 1-600 for example. I  
would then add a Repository to the source which name would be  
"Archiwum Państwowe we Wrocławiu" and as signature I would have  
"82/1427/0/1/01" as this is the signature the book has in the state  
archive in Breslau. At least this is how I handle it :)

Just my two cents...

Best regards,
Oliver


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Re: Repository per citation

Sebastian Schubert
Hi Oliver

> > Civil registries are a main source of my information. They wrote one or
> > two pages in a book for each birth, death or marriage. So for each
> > registry office, I created one Source with title "Registry books" and
> > author "Registry office XYZ". A specific entry is now a Citation with
> > Volume/Page "Person ABC - Death entry" and the corresponding date of the
> > entry. A scan of the corresponding page(s) is attached.
>
> I would have one source for each book at the office instead of one
> source for all books from this particular office. So I would have
> "Civil Registry Birth Register Breslau 1891, Part 1" for the 1st Book
> containing all Births with the register number 1-600 for example. I
> would then add a Repository to the source which name would be
> "Archiwum Państwowe we Wrocławiu" and as signature I would have
> "82/1427/0/1/01" as this is the signature the book has in the state
> archive in Breslau.

This sounds like the 100% solution and the way it is meant to be used.
I am somewhat reluctant to use this scheme because of the extra work
with little practical gain in my case. Since I have a scan/copy of
everything, I seldom have to revisit a repository.

Anyway, how do you treat single certificates? One source/citation pair
for each certificate?

Cheers
Sebastian


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Re: Repository per citation

ingridvg70
As the Netherlands have a similar system of civil registry books, I use
Oliver's method for the registry books. Certificates are separate sources:
after all, they are usually transcribed from the registry books, and
therefore subject to additional errors. And I only have certificates for a
few close family members, adding those as separate sources doesn't really
clutter my source list.

For me, knowing where I got the scan is not the most important thing
about using the repository
option; it is also knowing where to search for more information about that
particular area.

Groetjes

Ingrid


-----Original Message-----
From: Sebastian Schubert <[hidden email]>
Sent: maandag 1 juli 2019 11:44
To: gramps-users <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Gramps-users] Repository per citation

Hi Oliver

> > Civil registries are a main source of my information. They wrote one
> > or two pages in a book for each birth, death or marriage. So for
> > each registry office, I created one Source with title "Registry
> > books" and author "Registry office XYZ". A specific entry is now a
> > Citation with Volume/Page "Person ABC - Death entry" and the
> > corresponding date of the entry. A scan of the corresponding page(s) is
> > attached.
>
> I would have one source for each book at the office instead of one
> source for all books from this particular office. So I would have
> "Civil Registry Birth Register Breslau 1891, Part 1" for the 1st Book
> containing all Births with the register number 1-600 for example. I
> would then add a Repository to the source which name would be
> "Archiwum Państwowe we Wrocławiu" and as signature I would have
> "82/1427/0/1/01" as this is the signature the book has in the state
> archive in Breslau.

This sounds like the 100% solution and the way it is meant to be used.
I am somewhat reluctant to use this scheme because of the extra work with
little practical gain in my case. Since I have a scan/copy of everything, I
seldom have to revisit a repository.

Anyway, how do you treat single certificates? One source/citation pair for
each certificate?

Cheers
Sebastian


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Re: Repository per citation

Oliver Lehmann
In reply to this post by Sebastian Schubert

Sebastian Schubert <[hidden email]> wrote:

> This sounds like the 100% solution and the way it is meant to be used.
> I am somewhat reluctant to use this scheme because of the extra work
> with little practical gain in my case. Since I have a scan/copy of
> everything, I seldom have to revisit a repository.

Yeah of course - Gramps offers the possibility to do many things the
way you want :)

> Anyway, how do you treat single certificates? One source/citation pair
> for each certificate?

For me they are also citations of the original Book - so I would just
add them to the same book I would add photocopies of the original pages.
But I would reduce the Confidence of the citation.
While I have the highes level of confidence for the main registers
and the main churchbooks I reduce the confidence to the second highest
for the "Nebenregister" (secondary book?), church book duplicates
(created in the church) but as well for baptism certificates or birth
certificates.

By the way - "Nebenregister" as well as church book duplicates are also
additional sources beside the main register and the main church book :)

When the documents are more than a single certificate - for example more
like a family bible or "family register". Here in germany, a family
would have book at home where the registrar in the office would
"copy" all original register entries which are related to the family
into this book. Of course this is also just a citation of the original
book, but for me this "family register" book is a seperate source.
Nowadays it is just a folder, but in the past it was a real (small) book
with blank forms for marriage, birth and death.
It might be a bit unclean but for me this sounded reasonable in the past.

Best regards,
Oliver


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Re: Repository per citation

Sebastian Schubert
In reply to this post by ingridvg70
Dear Ingrid

Thanks for you input. I do have quite some certificates, some of high
importance because the original books were lost during the war(s).

Sebastian

> As the Netherlands have a similar system of civil registry books, I use
> Oliver's method for the registry books. Certificates are separate sources:
> after all, they are usually transcribed from the registry books, and
> therefore subject to additional errors. And I only have certificates for a
> few close family members, adding those as separate sources doesn't really
> clutter my source list.
>
> For me, knowing where I got the scan is not the most important thing
> about using the repository
> option; it is also knowing where to search for more information about that
> particular area.
>
> Groetjes
>
> Ingrid
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sebastian Schubert <[hidden email]>
> Sent: maandag 1 juli 2019 11:44
> To: gramps-users <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Gramps-users] Repository per citation
>
> Hi Oliver
>
> > > Civil registries are a main source of my information. They wrote one
> > > or two pages in a book for each birth, death or marriage. So for
> > > each registry office, I created one Source with title "Registry
> > > books" and author "Registry office XYZ". A specific entry is now a
> > > Citation with Volume/Page "Person ABC - Death entry" and the
> > > corresponding date of the entry. A scan of the corresponding page(s) is
> > > attached.
> >
> > I would have one source for each book at the office instead of one
> > source for all books from this particular office. So I would have
> > "Civil Registry Birth Register Breslau 1891, Part 1" for the 1st Book
> > containing all Births with the register number 1-600 for example. I
> > would then add a Repository to the source which name would be
> > "Archiwum Państwowe we Wrocławiu" and as signature I would have
> > "82/1427/0/1/01" as this is the signature the book has in the state
> > archive in Breslau.
>
> This sounds like the 100% solution and the way it is meant to be used.
> I am somewhat reluctant to use this scheme because of the extra work with
> little practical gain in my case. Since I have a scan/copy of everything, I
> seldom have to revisit a repository.
>
> Anyway, how do you treat single certificates? One source/citation pair for
> each certificate?
>
> Cheers
> Sebastian
>
>
> --
> Gramps-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users
> https://gramps-project.org


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Re: Repository per citation

Sebastian Schubert
In reply to this post by Oliver Lehmann
Dear Oliver

Thanks for the explanation. Except of having one source per register
and having neglected repositories so far, I do exactly the same. I
will probably use notes to remember from where I got the document.

Sebastian

Am Mo., 1. Juli 2019 um 12:47 Uhr schrieb Oliver Lehmann <[hidden email]>:

>
>
> Sebastian Schubert <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > This sounds like the 100% solution and the way it is meant to be used.
> > I am somewhat reluctant to use this scheme because of the extra work
> > with little practical gain in my case. Since I have a scan/copy of
> > everything, I seldom have to revisit a repository.
>
> Yeah of course - Gramps offers the possibility to do many things the
> way you want :)
>
> > Anyway, how do you treat single certificates? One source/citation pair
> > for each certificate?
>
> For me they are also citations of the original Book - so I would just
> add them to the same book I would add photocopies of the original pages.
> But I would reduce the Confidence of the citation.
> While I have the highes level of confidence for the main registers
> and the main churchbooks I reduce the confidence to the second highest
> for the "Nebenregister" (secondary book?), church book duplicates
> (created in the church) but as well for baptism certificates or birth
> certificates.
>
> By the way - "Nebenregister" as well as church book duplicates are also
> additional sources beside the main register and the main church book :)
>
> When the documents are more than a single certificate - for example more
> like a family bible or "family register". Here in germany, a family
> would have book at home where the registrar in the office would
> "copy" all original register entries which are related to the family
> into this book. Of course this is also just a citation of the original
> book, but for me this "family register" book is a seperate source.
> Nowadays it is just a folder, but in the past it was a real (small) book
> with blank forms for marriage, birth and death.
> It might be a bit unclean but for me this sounded reasonable in the past.
>
> Best regards,
> Oliver
>
>
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