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Sources and Citations

Brian Grawburg

Trying to standardize the way I record sources & citations.  Here's what I'm starting to do; comments, please. I'm using version 3.4.9-1


Here are four sources:


SOURCE:

Birth Certificates    (this would be general category for all birth certificates)

Land Records for Rensselaer County

Land Records for Saratoga County

CENSUS 1850: New York


Citations:

These would be under Birth Certificates

Cherokee General Hospital, Brian Grawburg

Lynchburg General Hospital, Pamela Bishop


These would be under Land Records (for the appropriate county)

Book #6, page 150

Book #12, page 28


These would be under CENSUS 1850: New York

Wilton, Saratoga, page 164

Lansingburgh, Rensselaer, page 169


The citation notes would have the fuller information.



Thanks,

Brian Grawburg



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Re: Sources and Citations

Ron Johnson
On 01/24/2017 09:47 AM, Brian Grawburg wrote:

Trying to standardize the way I record sources & citations.  Here's what I'm starting to do; comments, please. I'm using version 3.4.9-1


Here are four sources:


SOURCE:

Birth Certificates    (this would be general category for all birth certificates)

Land Records for Rensselaer County

Land Records for Saratoga County

CENSUS 1850: New York


Citations:

These would be under Birth Certificates

Cherokee General Hospital, Brian Grawburg

Lynchburg General Hospital, Pamela Bishop


Maybe it differs by state and era, but where I live, all birth certificates are issued by the county, and have a volume number, page number and (in later years) certificate number.

For censuses, I've got one source per decade, with detailed citations.

As long as Someone Else can easily use your source+citation to find the original, it's a matter of personal taste which you use.

One thing that is obvious to me, though, is that "Birth Certificates" isn't a source.  It is, as you say, a category.  Thus, I recommend against doing it that way.

Also, I don't think that "Lynchburg General Hospital, Pamela Bishop" is nearly adequate to that task.  At a bare minimum, it needs a year, and the state where LGH exists.  More importantly, where did you get that b/c from?  The hospital, the county or the state?  That's what your Source should be, and the citation is a "direct pointer" to the exactly location where the b/c is.

Thus, I have for
SOURCE:                     CITATION:
Orleans Parish Birth Index  Year 1886 / Vol 84 / Page 871
                            Year 1857 / Vol 48 / Page 765
1865 Norway Census          1001P Sandvigen borough, Christiansand, Vest-Agder
1860 US Federal Census      New Orleans Ward 1, LA / Page 131
                            Grayson Co, VA / Page: 137 Lines 34-40 & Page 138 Lines 1-4
etc
etc
etc

From what I've read, there are two schools of thought:
1) few generalized sources, and many detailed citations per source, and
2) many rather specific sources, but few citations per source.

These would be under Land Records (for the appropriate county)

Book #6, page 150

Book #12, page 28


These would be under CENSUS 1850: New York

Wilton, Saratoga, page 164

Lansingburgh, Rensselaer, page 169


The citation notes would have the fuller information.



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Re: Sources and Citations

Rich Lakey
There is more than one way to skin a cat. Where Ron uses one source per decade for census, I use one source per census image (sometimes two images per source if household spans two sheets). Sometimes a source (census sheet) can have several citations reference it if there are multiple households on the sheet. Each citation references the line number the head of household is on.

Rich

On 01/24/2017 10:51 AM, Ron Johnson wrote:
On 01/24/2017 09:47 AM, Brian Grawburg wrote:

Trying to standardize the way I record sources & citations.  Here's what I'm starting to do; comments, please. I'm using version 3.4.9-1


Here are four sources:


SOURCE:

Birth Certificates    (this would be general category for all birth certificates)

Land Records for Rensselaer County

Land Records for Saratoga County

CENSUS 1850: New York


Citations:

These would be under Birth Certificates

Cherokee General Hospital, Brian Grawburg

Lynchburg General Hospital, Pamela Bishop


Maybe it differs by state and era, but where I live, all birth certificates are issued by the county, and have a volume number, page number and (in later years) certificate number.

For censuses, I've got one source per decade, with detailed citations.

As long as Someone Else can easily use your source+citation to find the original, it's a matter of personal taste which you use.

One thing that is obvious to me, though, is that "Birth Certificates" isn't a source.  It is, as you say, a category.  Thus, I recommend against doing it that way.

Also, I don't think that "Lynchburg General Hospital, Pamela Bishop" is nearly adequate to that task.  At a bare minimum, it needs a year, and the state where LGH exists.  More importantly, where did you get that b/c from?  The hospital, the county or the state?  That's what your Source should be, and the citation is a "direct pointer" to the exactly location where the b/c is.

Thus, I have for
SOURCE:                     CITATION:
Orleans Parish Birth Index  Year 1886 / Vol 84 / Page 871
                            Year 1857 / Vol 48 / Page 765
1865 Norway Census          1001P Sandvigen borough, Christiansand, Vest-Agder
1860 US Federal Census      New Orleans Ward 1, LA / Page 131
                            Grayson Co, VA / Page: 137 Lines 34-40 & Page 138 Lines 1-4
etc
etc
etc

From what I've read, there are two schools of thought:
1) few generalized sources, and many detailed citations per source, and
2) many rather specific sources, but few citations per source.

These would be under Land Records (for the appropriate county)

Book #6, page 150

Book #12, page 28


These would be under CENSUS 1850: New York

Wilton, Saratoga, page 164

Lansingburgh, Rensselaer, page 169


The citation notes would have the fuller information.



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Re: Sources and Citations

Dave Scheipers
I started sourcing each individual census image but quickly realized that I would have thousands of sources just for the census. Currently have 3700+ census images and will soon add the six I found yesterday. So I converted them to one per year per the entity doing the census. US 1790... MA 1865... UK 1891... Canada 1901.... The details of the image goes in the citation.

And while I do have a simple 'Birth Certificate', etc, source for scans of documents gathered directly from family members, most image/documentation comes from more specific sources. And it's only on the source record that the repository can be attached. So I use whatever the repository has named the source as my own. After all, part of the reason for sourcing is so someone else can retrace your steps and find the exact same info; go to the repository, select the source, go to the page and find the info on the certain line.

Dave

On Tue, Jan 24, 2017 at 12:10 PM, Rich <[hidden email]> wrote:
There is more than one way to skin a cat. Where Ron uses one source per decade for census, I use one source per census image (sometimes two images per source if household spans two sheets). Sometimes a source (census sheet) can have several citations reference it if there are multiple households on the sheet. Each citation references the line number the head of household is on.

Rich


On 01/24/2017 10:51 AM, Ron Johnson wrote:
On 01/24/2017 09:47 AM, Brian Grawburg wrote:

Trying to standardize the way I record sources & citations.  Here's what I'm starting to do; comments, please. I'm using version 3.4.9-1


Here are four sources:


SOURCE:

Birth Certificates    (this would be general category for all birth certificates)

Land Records for Rensselaer County

Land Records for Saratoga County

CENSUS 1850: New York


Citations:

These would be under Birth Certificates

Cherokee General Hospital, Brian Grawburg

Lynchburg General Hospital, Pamela Bishop


Maybe it differs by state and era, but where I live, all birth certificates are issued by the county, and have a volume number, page number and (in later years) certificate number.

For censuses, I've got one source per decade, with detailed citations.

As long as Someone Else can easily use your source+citation to find the original, it's a matter of personal taste which you use.

One thing that is obvious to me, though, is that "Birth Certificates" isn't a source.  It is, as you say, a category.  Thus, I recommend against doing it that way.

Also, I don't think that "Lynchburg General Hospital, Pamela Bishop" is nearly adequate to that task.  At a bare minimum, it needs a year, and the state where LGH exists.  More importantly, where did you get that b/c from?  The hospital, the county or the state?  That's what your Source should be, and the citation is a "direct pointer" to the exactly location where the b/c is.

Thus, I have for
SOURCE:                     CITATION:
Orleans Parish Birth Index  Year 1886 / Vol 84 / Page 871
                            Year 1857 / Vol 48 / Page 765
1865 Norway Census          1001P Sandvigen borough, Christiansand, Vest-Agder
1860 US Federal Census      New Orleans Ward 1, LA / Page 131
                            Grayson Co, VA / Page: 137 Lines 34-40 & Page 138 Lines 1-4
etc
etc
etc

From what I've read, there are two schools of thought:
1) few generalized sources, and many detailed citations per source, and
2) many rather specific sources, but few citations per source.

These would be under Land Records (for the appropriate county)

Book #6, page 150

Book #12, page 28


These would be under CENSUS 1850: New York

Wilton, Saratoga, page 164

Lansingburgh, Rensselaer, page 169


The citation notes would have the fuller information.



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Re: Sources and Citations

Ron Johnson
In reply to this post by Rich Lakey
On 01/24/2017 12:14 PM, Dave Scheipers wrote:
[snip]
> And while I do have a simple 'Birth Certificate', etc, source for scans
> of documents gathered directly from family members,

I give that the source name "Scanned Images".

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Re: Sources and Citations

Brad Rogers
In reply to this post by Dave Scheipers
On Tue, 24 Jan 2017 13:14:10 -0500
Dave Scheipers <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello Dave,

>UK 1891...

No such thing as the UK Census;  There's the Census of England and Wales
(but from 1891 onwards, there are extra questions on the Welsh papers)
and there's the Census of Scotland.

So, if using the Forms Gramplet, the English and Welsh (from 1891) will
have to have separate sources, otherwise you can't enter the extra info
that may be available in the Welsh returns.  All Scottish censuses should
have their own source anyway since the questions asked were quite
different.  The headings in the Scottish censuses were very different,
too.

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         / )           "The blindingly obvious is
        / _)rad        never immediately apparent"
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Re: Sources and Citations

Dave Scheipers
Sorry Brad,

I was just trying to give the impression of how I organize my census sources. And you're right. I don't have any census records for 1891.

I don't use the forms gramplets. I prefer to enter events directly for each individual.

Dave

On Tue, Jan 24, 2017 at 2:51 PM, Brad Rogers <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Tue, 24 Jan 2017 13:14:10 -0500
Dave Scheipers <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello Dave,

>UK 1891...

No such thing as the UK Census;  There's the Census of England and Wales
(but from 1891 onwards, there are extra questions on the Welsh papers)
and there's the Census of Scotland.

So, if using the Forms Gramplet, the English and Welsh (from 1891) will
have to have separate sources, otherwise you can't enter the extra info
that may be available in the Welsh returns.  All Scottish censuses should
have their own source anyway since the questions asked were quite
different.  The headings in the Scottish censuses were very different,
too.

--
 Regards  _
         / )           "The blindingly obvious is
        / _)rad        never immediately apparent"
What the hell has this place done for me?
Selfish Rubbish - Public Image Ltd

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Re: Sources and Citations

Brad Rogers
On Tue, 24 Jan 2017 15:22:27 -0500
Dave Scheipers <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello Dave,

> Sorry Brad,

No need to apologise....

>I was just trying to give the impression of how I organize my census

....I maybe overreacted.

>I don't use the forms gramplets. I prefer to enter events directly for
>each individual.

Each individual gets their own copy of the event (with only the parts
relevant to themselves) when using the Forms Gramplet.  It saves having
multiple events for the same household.

I don't like to have too many events.   :-)

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        / _)rad        never immediately apparent"
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Re: Sources and Citations

paul womack
In reply to this post by Dave Scheipers
Dave Scheipers wrote:
> Sorry Brad,
>
> I was just trying to give the impression of how I organize my census sources. And you're right. I don't have any census records for 1891.
>
> I don't use the forms gramplets. I prefer to enter events directly for each individual.

Me too - but I envy the speed of the forms...

  BugBear


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Re: Sources and Citations

Nick Hall
On 25/01/17 08:33, paul womack wrote:
I don't use the forms gramplets. I prefer to enter events directly for each individual.
Me too - but I envy the speed of the forms...

I wrote the original census editor to automate the manual process.  It is possible to achieve exactly the same result using standard Gramps editors.

Nick.



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Re: Sources and Citations

Ron Johnson
In reply to this post by paul womack
On 01/25/2017 08:51 AM, Nick Hall wrote:
On 25/01/17 08:33, paul womack wrote:
I don't use the forms gramplets. I prefer to enter events directly for each individual.
Me too - but I envy the speed of the forms...

I wrote the original census editor to automate the manual process.  It is possible to achieve exactly the same result using standard Gramps editors.


Like the Person and Family edit windows?

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Re: Sources and Citations

Nick Hall
On 25/01/17 15:06, Ron Johnson wrote:
> Like the Person and Family edit windows?

Yes.  For a census, you would need to use the citation, event, place,
person and attribute editors.

Nick.



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Re: Sources and Citations

Tim Lyons
Administrator
In reply to this post by Brian Grawburg
Grawburg wrote
Trying to standardize the way I record sources & citations.  Here's what I'm starting to do; comments, please. I'm using version 3.4.9-1





Here are four sources:




SOURCE:

Birth Certificates    (this would be general category for all birth certificates)

Land Records for Rensselaer County

Land Records for Saratoga County


CENSUS 1850: New York





Citations:

These would be under Birth Certificates

Cherokee General Hospital, Brian Grawburg


Lynchburg General Hospital, Pamela Bishop





These would be under Land Records (for the appropriate county)


Book #6, page 150

Book #12, page 28





These would be under CENSUS 1850: New York


Wilton, Saratoga, page 164

Lansingburgh, Rensselaer, page 169





The citation notes would have the fuller information.
There are three comments you will hear whenever you ask this type of question;

(1) It is just a matter of taste/opinion as to how you do it.
(2) define an approach that suits you and most important, stick to it.
(3) Seek guidance on how to organise your data.

My personal approach is:
(a) I do whatever the Forms gramplet does (as I use that gramplet when possible).
(b) I have the "Silicon Valley PAF Users Group - Family History Documentation Guidelines (2nd edition)" as guidance, if I want to find some suggestions for something that I haven't already decided on.

For example, the "Family History Documentation Guidelines" says:
Source Title: Census: 1880 United States or 1880 United States Census or United States: 1880 Census.
Auther: The Church of the Latter Day Saints
Publication information Web site
Call number www.FamilySearch.org
Repository Name: Family History departments...Salt Lake city

Citation Data:
Film/Vol/Page No: FHL Film 123456 NA Film No T9-1336 Page 207C
Date of Entry:
Actual text: " Henrietta C...."

I know that I have searched for, and found quite a lot of suggested guidance on the web e.g. [1].

Another source is  "Evidence Style", see for example [2]. However, I think that Elizabeth Shown Mills is extremely flaky [3], because she says she has worked from The Chicago Manual of Style, but she has ignored the applicable parts of that manual, and she has gone off in one direction and Chicago has gone off in another and they are not compatible.

Regards,
Tim.





[1] http://lmgtfy.com/?q=genealogy+how+to+cite+sources
[2] https://familysearch.org/wiki/en/Citations_(Evidence_Style) Although this is more about how the output should look, not where you put the data in Gramps.
[3] https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/flaky second definition.
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Re: Sources and Citations

Ron Johnson
In reply to this post by Brian Grawburg
On 01/28/2017 12:27 PM, Tim Lyons wrote:
[snip]
For example, the "Family History Documentation Guidelines" says:
Source Title: Census: 1880 United States or 1880 United States Census or
United States: 1880 Census.
Auther: The Church of the Latter Day Saints
Publication information Web site
Call number www.FamilySearch.org
Repository Name: Family History departments...Salt Lake city

Citation Data:
Film/Vol/Page No: FHL Film 123456 NA Film No T9-1336 Page 207C
Date of Entry:
Actual text: " Henrietta C...."

This I completely disagree with, since it inextricably ties you to the Family History Library.

Better to stick to just what the actual census says:
Year, State, County, Division/City/town/twp/Ward, Enumeration District, Sheet num/Line nums.

That way you can look it up even if you go to the National Archives.

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Re: Sources and Citations

Tim Lyons
Administrator
Ron Johnson wrote
On 01/28/2017 12:27 PM, Tim Lyons wrote:
[snip]
> For example, the "Family History Documentation Guidelines" says:
> Source Title: Census: 1880 United States or 1880 United States Census or
> United States: 1880 Census.
> Auther: The Church of the Latter Day Saints
> Publication information Web site
> Call number www.FamilySearch.org
> Repository Name: Family History departments...Salt Lake city
>
> Citation Data:
> Film/Vol/Page No: FHL Film 123456 NA Film No T9-1336 Page 207C
> Date of Entry:
> Actual text: " Henrietta C...."

This I *completely* disagree with, since it inextricably ties you to the
Family History Library.

I agree, I don't use that information in my database either. I just provided it as an example of the form of guidance that is available.

(Actually census data is a good example of how difficult it is; the original data (in the UK at least) is in books which have one referencing system, but are not normally accessible to the public. The books are then photographed to microfilm, copies of which used to be available to the public, and were probably used by the Family History Library to generate indexes. Then the data and new indexes are scanned and generated and available on the web at Ancestry or FindMyPast. All these have different referencing systems, and represent different repositories!) I too have a system that works for me.

Tim.
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Re: Sources and Citations

Ron Johnson
In reply to this post by Ron Johnson
On 01/29/2017 04:37 AM, Tim Lyons wrote:
[snip]
> (Actually census data is a good example of how difficult it is; the original
> data (in the UK at least) is in books which have one referencing system, but
> are not normally accessible to the public. The books are then photographed
> to microfilm, copies of which used to be available to the public, and were
> probably used by the Family History Library to generate indexes. Then the
> data and new indexes are scanned and generated and available on the web at
> Ancestry or FindMyPast. All these have different referencing systems, and
> represent different repositories!) I too have a system that works for me.

Glad that I'm not the only one who has noticed that UK census indexing is...
inconsistent.  :(

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Re: Sources and Citations

enno
In reply to this post by Tim Lyons
All,

> I agree, I don't use that information in my database either. I just provided
> it as an example of the form of guidance that is available.
>
> (Actually census data is a good example of how difficult it is; the original
> data (in the UK at least) is in books which have one referencing system, but
> are not normally accessible to the public. The books are then photographed
> to microfilm, copies of which used to be available to the public, and were
> probably used by the Family History Library to generate indexes. Then the
> data and new indexes are scanned and generated and available on the web at
> Ancestry or FindMyPast. All these have different referencing systems, and
> represent different repositories!) I too have a system that works for me.
Right, and the trouble is that until now no party has created a usable
standard that expands the citation fields enough to register publishers
like FamilySearch as a separate entity. One could register them as a
repository, but that is not always right, and far from easy either.

And while the fields in the GEDCOM standard are too simple, I also think
that the fields used in EE based templates are too much, because I see
hundreds of those in 'EE' based programs like RootsMagic. In my mind a
dozen (new) fields should be enough to register author, title, date,
volume, page, and line for the original source (census, record for a
life event, etc.), and similar elements for a compiled work, index, or
archive, where the data is actually found. This will then allow us to
register FamilySearch as a publisher, add film numbers or other
catalogue numbers where applicable, and also item numbers and URLs for
particular records, where available. Same for repositories, because in
many cases FamilySearch is not the repository, but only the organization
that filmed the record there. Separating publisher and repository is
essential if you want to (give others a chance to) look at the real
thing later.

To my regret, all efforts to create a new standard, with no more than a
dozen (new) fields have failed, mostly because many fellow developers
and users outside Gramps think of the new standard that is designed to
rule them all, and people should know that such efforts are doomed to fail.

regards,

Enno


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