Sources, media and galleries: how to tie it all up "as intended"

[Frederico Munoz]

Greetings,

I've started to use GRAMPS to manage my family tree and assist me in
further investigations and overall I'm very happy with it, congrats,
very feature full and nice to use.

I've been reading the wiki, the documentation and the forum archives
and I still have some doubts regarding sources, sourcerefs and images.
This message is more to hear about how other people use it and try to
learn a better way.

I'm trying to follow the "recommended"  best-practices that I catch
here and there; as an example I'm using Source to mean an entire book
(say, "1890 Baptism Book of Parish X", "Inquisition Process on Purity
of individual Y", etc) and sourcerefs to indicate the page number and
other identification that pinpoints the page in the overall book.
Sometimes I don't have a good idea of the source scope (e.g. some
parishes have books that span multiple years) but I still use the same
method, registering the year in the sourceref until I know for sure
how the physical source is divided. I further create a Repository
(Parish of Y, Civil Registry of X, etc) and associate the source with
the repository.

One of my objectives is to be able to track the sources in individual
records. I'm adding a sourceref to every event to the appropriate
source. I then scan the document (lets assume that it is a Catholic
birth record for this example, consisting of one page of a larger book
that covers the entire year) and add it to the media.

Here is the point where I'm not exactly sure on how to proceed. I'm
following the example put forth by the UK Census on the wiki, which is
to associate the Source to the Media. This works but seems to me a bit
"indirect" in the way it works:

1) Select the individual event
2) Go to Sources
3) Open the Source reference
4) See the "References" tab in the Source
5) Order it by type and find the Media Object by name
6) Select the Media Object, open the image

Maybe this is the best way to do it but I find it odd that I'm not
using the "gallery" tab of the Source which could perhaps provide a
more direct access. If I understood correctly the description of the
Media should be ideally in line with the sourceref Volume/Page field -
I initially named each media like "Birth certificate of Foo" but that
becomes impractical when several different records are in the same
page. Seeing the image buried amongst so many individual events
strikes me as not immediately

I've thought of adding it to the gallery *in addition* to adding the
sourceref to the Media (linking it to the source) but I tend to do my
best to avoid double-linking information since it becomes very hard to
manage after a while, but maybe in this situation it would help: the
global Source would display the individual pages, much like a book. Is
this something perfectly reasonable or does it raise some objections?

Any thoughts, critics and ideas greatly appreciated. I'm using GRAMPS
2.2.10-1 in Fedora 9 and still in the beginning so this is the ideal
time to get as much input as possible :)

Best regards,

Frederico Muñoz

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[jerome]

Hello Frederico,

> One of my objectives is to be able to track the sources in individual
> records. I'm adding a sourceref to every event to the appropriate
> source. I then scan the document (lets assume that it is a Catholic
> birth record for this example, consisting of one page of a larger book
> that covers the entire year) and add it to the media.


I try to keep a rule :

Event = one source with images and ref (call number) related to repository.

I use /source/ tab on Person for contemporary time (internet,  
distant cousins), except recent publications which are also sources
which will join events.

/Media Object/ are just a part of source.
I do not add a source on media  (infinite loop)

I made 2 groups in my mind :

* /Person/ & /Event/ & /Place/ & /Family/
* /Source/ & /Media Object/ & /Note/ & /Repository/

My primary bridge is /Event/ <-> /Source/
secondary /Person/ <--> /Media Object/
       
Former users will recognize (GRAMPS 1.x & GRAMPS 2.x 3.x) ... ;)

> If I understood correctly the description of the
> Media should be ideally in line with the sourceref Volume/Page field -
> I initially named each media like "Birth certificate of Foo" but that
> becomes impractical when several different records are in the same
> page.

I use sourceref on event for storing information coming from source
(data on Image) : ie. volume, page or date on right head corner or in
margin, etc ....

There was many discussion on mailing list ...
http://www.nabble.com/Sources-and-sourceref---part-2-td10167633.html
http://www.nabble.com/sources%2C-subsources-and-sourceref-td9866329.html
http://www.nabble.com/local-gallery-tab-in-source-reference-td13292214.html

Benny said :
> Continental european sources (at least roman catholic) are often parish registries, which are logs of birth/marriage/death. So every birth, the priest makes a log entry. The original registries have no page numbering or sections. The only way of finding the correct entry is the log date, hence the date in source reference.

Also, certificates are often produced one or a few days after the event
(which is itself dated in the certificate).

I try to avoid using Page/Volum because it is not easy to manage or to
retrieve. That's how I work, this suits me.
The program is very flexible, everyone can find an operation that suits him.



Jérôme R.


Frederico Muñoz a écrit :

> Greetings,
>
> I've started to use GRAMPS to manage my family tree and assist me in
> further investigations and overall I'm very happy with it, congrats,
> very feature full and nice to use.
>
> I've been reading the wiki, the documentation and the forum archives
> and I still have some doubts regarding sources, sourcerefs and images.
> This message is more to hear about how other people use it and try to
> learn a better way.
>
> I'm trying to follow the "recommended"  best-practices that I catch
> here and there; as an example I'm using Source to mean an entire book
> (say, "1890 Baptism Book of Parish X", "Inquisition Process on Purity
> of individual Y", etc) and sourcerefs to indicate the page number and
> other identification that pinpoints the page in the overall book.
> Sometimes I don't have a good idea of the source scope (e.g. some
> parishes have books that span multiple years) but I still use the same
> method, registering the year in the sourceref until I know for sure
> how the physical source is divided. I further create a Repository
> (Parish of Y, Civil Registry of X, etc) and associate the source with
> the repository.
>
> One of my objectives is to be able to track the sources in individual
> records. I'm adding a sourceref to every event to the appropriate
> source. I then scan the document (lets assume that it is a Catholic
> birth record for this example, consisting of one page of a larger book
> that covers the entire year) and add it to the media.
>
> Here is the point where I'm not exactly sure on how to proceed. I'm
> following the example put forth by the UK Census on the wiki, which is
> to associate the Source to the Media. This works but seems to me a bit
> "indirect" in the way it works:
>
> 1) Select the individual event
> 2) Go to Sources
> 3) Open the Source reference
> 4) See the "References" tab in the Source
> 5) Order it by type and find the Media Object by name
> 6) Select the Media Object, open the image
>
> Maybe this is the best way to do it but I find it odd that I'm not
> using the "gallery" tab of the Source which could perhaps provide a
> more direct access. If I understood correctly the description of the
> Media should be ideally in line with the sourceref Volume/Page field -
> I initially named each media like "Birth certificate of Foo" but that
> becomes impractical when several different records are in the same
> page. Seeing the image buried amongst so many individual events
> strikes me as not immediately
>
> I've thought of adding it to the gallery *in addition* to adding the
> sourceref to the Media (linking it to the source) but I tend to do my
> best to avoid double-linking information since it becomes very hard to
> manage after a while, but maybe in this situation it would help: the
> global Source would display the individual pages, much like a book. Is
> this something perfectly reasonable or does it raise some objections?
>
> Any thoughts, critics and ideas greatly appreciated. I'm using GRAMPS
> 2.2.10-1 in Fedora 9 and still in the beginning so this is the ideal
> time to get as much input as possible :)
>
> Best regards,
>
> Frederico Muñoz
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge
> Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK & win great prizes
> Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world
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> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users
>

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[Frederico Munoz]

Hi,

Thanks for your answer.

Jérôme <[hidden email]> writes:
(...)
> I try to keep a rule :
>
> Event = one source with images and ref (call number) related to repository.
>
> I use /source/ tab on Person for contemporary time (internet,  
> distant cousins), except recent publications which are also sources
> which will join events.
>

Interesting, that makes sense. Since most of the sources are attached
to events I was wondering what would the person source do, and that
looks like a good approach.

> /Media Object/ are just a part of source.
> I do not add a source on media  (infinite loop)

By part of a source you mean you add it to the source gallery right
(assuming it is an image)?

> I made 2 groups in my mind :
>
> * /Person/ & /Event/ & /Place/ & /Family/
> * /Source/ & /Media Object/ & /Note/ & /Repository/
>
> My primary bridge is /Event/ <-> /Source/
> secondary /Person/ <--> /Media Object/

Sorry, didn't quite understood it fully: you add sourcerefs to Sources
in the Events - that much I get - but how to you use that "secondary"
bridge? Do you directly add the media object to the person or is it by
virtues of the previous adding to the gallery (which would add a
"reference" linking the image to the source?

If not, well, it still sounds like a good way :) A source would be,
say, a book, each page a Media Object that would be added to the
gallery of that book (and not linked with the book by a sourceref as
in my initial scenario) which would "link" the image to the source by
means of an automatically added reference. With this locating the
digitised image of a birth record would be much simples since all the
pages would be immediately visible in the shared source gallery that
is visible when clicking on the sourceref of any event.

Sorry to burden you with so many questions but I'm really interested
in hearing the views of more experienced users.

 

> Former users will recognize (GRAMPS 1.x & GRAMPS 2.x 3.x) ... ;)
>
>> If I understood correctly the description of the
>> Media should be ideally in line with the sourceref Volume/Page field -
>> I initially named each media like "Birth certificate of Foo" but that
>> becomes impractical when several different records are in the same
>> page.
>
> I use sourceref on event for storing information coming from source
> (data on Image) : ie. volume, page or date on right head corner or in
> margin, etc ....

You mean the usage of the "notes" and "attributes" filed in the
sourceref, as opposed to the Shared Information related to the source,
right?

>
> There was many discussion on mailing list ...
> http://www.nabble.com/Sources-and-sourceref---part-2-td10167633.html
> http://www.nabble.com/sources%2C-subsources-and-sourceref-td9866329.html
> http://www.nabble.com/local-gallery-tab-in-source-reference-td13292214.html

Yes, I've read them all. Several times, and that's why I initiated
this thread, since while I was able to gather a  lot of useful
information from them I remained rather doubtful in some areas,
particularly the sources/events/images relationships.

> Benny said :
>> Continental european sources (at least roman catholic) are often
>> parish registries, which are logs of birth/marriage/death. So every
>> birth, the priest makes a log entry. The original registries have
>> no page numbering or sections. The only way of finding the correct
>> entry is the log date, hence the date in source reference.

Yes, I use the date field in the sourceref this way.

> Also, certificates are often produced one or a few days after the
> event (which is itself dated in the certificate).
>
> I try to avoid using Page/Volum because it is not easy to manage or to
> retrieve. That's how I work, this suits me.
> The program is very flexible, everyone can find an operation that suits him.

Very flexible indeed, which is partially why I have this doubts, since
there are many ways to represent specific associations, all of them
"working".

You said you avoid Page/Volume... you use a "one page = one source"
strategy or a "one source = many pages/media objects" one?

Best Regards,

--
Frederico Muñoz
[hidden email]

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[Martin Steer-2]

[hidden email] (Frederico Muñoz) writes:

> Jérôme <[hidden email]> writes:
> (...)
>> I try to keep a rule :
>>
>> Event = one source with images and ref (call number) related to repository.
>>
>> I use /source/ tab on Person for contemporary time (internet,  
>> distant cousins), except recent publications which are also sources
>> which will join events.
>>
>
> Interesting, that makes sense. Since most of the sources are attached
> to events I was wondering what would the person source do, and that
> looks like a good approach.

> [snip]
>
>
>> Benny said :
>>> Continental european sources (at least roman catholic) are often
>>> parish registries, which are logs of birth/marriage/death. So every
>>> birth, the priest makes a log entry. The original registries have
>>> no page numbering or sections. The only way of finding the correct
>>> entry is the log date, hence the date in source reference.
>
> Yes, I use the date field in the sourceref this way.
>
>> Also, certificates are often produced one or a few days after the
>> event (which is itself dated in the certificate).
>>
>> I try to avoid using Page/Volum because it is not easy to manage or to
>> retrieve. That's how I work, this suits me.
>> The program is very flexible, everyone can find an operation that suits him.
>
> Very flexible indeed, which is partially why I have this doubts, since
> there are many ways to represent specific associations, all of them
> "working".
>
> You said you avoid Page/Volume... you use a "one page = one source"
> strategy or a "one source = many pages/media objects" one?

I'm not sure whether I've well understood the preceding discussion, but
that final question interests me. Two sources can be of the same kind,
but be used differently, hence require a different kind of entry.

If we take a parish register as an example, what seems natural in gramps
is to make the register itself the source, with some section of the
source noted in the reference tab. So the total source reference might
be something like: "St Mary Magdalene parish register: vol.5, p.35".
This resembles the usual style of an academic reference.

It works for references that are used once, but it doesn't share well.
What I mean is, a single entry in a birth register may be a source that
I use across a number of events or individuals, so I don't want to go in
and type "vol.5, p.35" every time I use it, and, more importantly, I
want to be able to see where I have used it. I can't do that here,
because the source visible in the database is the parish register, not
the vol. and page no.

So I've been using different strategies for what are sometimes the same
kinds of sources. If I want to reuse something, it becomes a named
source: "Baptism of John Smith", whereas if a baptism is a one-off
source, it might just be: "St Mary Magdalene parish register". "Baptism
of John Smith" still needs annotation, so the parish register becomes a
repository (a source of the source) as well. This is a strategy that
makes me uncomfortable.

What I'm trying to do here is use an event (a baptism) as a source for
something else (e.g. proof of a relationship), which seems quite a
natural thing to want to do in a genealogy database. An event, of
course, itself has sources.

Gramps, however, will let me share an event as an event, but not as a
source. One way around that might be to create a source which points to
the event: "Baptism of J. Smith (source)", "Baptism of J. Smith
(event)". This again makes me uncomfortable. Is there a better way?

--
Martin

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[Frederico Munoz]

Hello,


Martin Steer <[hidden email]> writes:

> If we take a parish register as an example, what seems natural in gramps
> is to make the register itself the source, with some section of the
> source noted in the reference tab. So the total source reference might
> be something like: "St Mary Magdalene parish register: vol.5, p.35".
> This resembles the usual style of an academic reference.

Yes, that's what I've been using after reading about it in the forums,
seems like it is the "recommended" way of doing it.

> It works for references that are used once, but it doesn't share well.
> What I mean is, a single entry in a birth register may be a source that
> I use across a number of events or individuals, so I don't want to go in
> and type "vol.5, p.35" every time I use it,

Yes, that's why in the UK Census tutorial the Scratchpad is introduced
in the very beginning, so has to simplify the copying of the sourceref
amongst different events.

> and, more importantly, I
> want to be able to see where I have used it. I can't do that here,
> because the source visible in the database is the parish register, not
> the vol. and page no.


True. This also applies to the Media Object that represents the
specific page (since this is what generally people have, a copy of a
page), it isn't directly linked with the event, only with the Source.


> So I've been using different strategies for what are sometimes the same
> kinds of sources. If I want to reuse something, it becomes a named
> source: "Baptism of John Smith", whereas if a baptism is a one-off
> source, it might just be: "St Mary Magdalene parish register". "Baptism
> of John Smith" still needs annotation, so the parish register becomes a
> repository (a source of the source) as well. This is a strategy that
> makes me uncomfortable.

Yes, I had something like that initially and it just felt a bit of
quick fix, hence my message to the list in search of the ever elusive
"Right Way" of doing things.

> What I'm trying to do here is use an event (a baptism) as a source for
> something else (e.g. proof of a relationship), which seems quite a
> natural thing to want to do in a genealogy database. An event, of
> course, itself has sources.
> Gramps, however, will let me share an event as an event, but not as a
> source. One way around that might be to create a source which points to
> the event: "Baptism of J. Smith (source)", "Baptism of J. Smith
> (event)". This again makes me uncomfortable. Is there a better way?

I use the same source in both events: if the birth record has a
mention of the death (typical in civil registers here) I add the same
sourceref in both events since the underlying document is the same. If
a baptism record has the names of the parents then I add the sourceref
to the baptism record to both events, baptism and that proof of
relationship (e.g. a marriage event with a "before xxx" type of date).

Cheers,

--
Frederico Muñoz
[hidden email]

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[jerome]

Frederico,

> Sorry, didn't quite understood it fully: you add sourcerefs to Sources
> in the Events - that much I get - but how to you use that "secondary"
> bridge? Do you directly add the media object to the person or is it by
> virtues of the previous adding to the gallery (which would add a
> "reference" linking the image to the source?

Sorry, I am often too confused
I add media object (Image) to the Person as a photo (no source)
(this should not be related to this post ...) :-[

> You said you avoid Page/Volume... you use a "one page = one source"
> strategy or a "one source = many pages/media objects" one?

My genealogical searches are in France (Parish are before 1792) and
Germany. Sources management is certainly different ?

1. I use Call number on repository (related to source).
2. one page = one image = one source = multiples events (except census)
3. census event = one source = (many pages)/media objects = multiples
persons and events

I hope this could help !
Best regards,


Jérôme


Frederico Muñoz a écrit :

> Hi,
>
> Thanks for your answer.
>
> Jérôme <[hidden email]> writes:
> (...)
>> I try to keep a rule :
>>
>> Event = one source with images and ref (call number) related to repository.
>>
>> I use /source/ tab on Person for contemporary time (internet,  
>> distant cousins), except recent publications which are also sources
>> which will join events.
>>
>
> Interesting, that makes sense. Since most of the sources are attached
> to events I was wondering what would the person source do, and that
> looks like a good approach.
>
>> /Media Object/ are just a part of source.
>> I do not add a source on media  (infinite loop)
>
> By part of a source you mean you add it to the source gallery right
> (assuming it is an image)?
>
>> I made 2 groups in my mind :
>>
>> * /Person/ & /Event/ & /Place/ & /Family/
>> * /Source/ & /Media Object/ & /Note/ & /Repository/
>>
>> My primary bridge is /Event/ <-> /Source/
>> secondary /Person/ <--> /Media Object/
>
> Sorry, didn't quite understood it fully: you add sourcerefs to Sources
> in the Events - that much I get - but how to you use that "secondary"
> bridge? Do you directly add the media object to the person or is it by
> virtues of the previous adding to the gallery (which would add a
> "reference" linking the image to the source?
>
> If not, well, it still sounds like a good way :) A source would be,
> say, a book, each page a Media Object that would be added to the
> gallery of that book (and not linked with the book by a sourceref as
> in my initial scenario) which would "link" the image to the source by
> means of an automatically added reference. With this locating the
> digitised image of a birth record would be much simples since all the
> pages would be immediately visible in the shared source gallery that
> is visible when clicking on the sourceref of any event.
>
> Sorry to burden you with so many questions but I'm really interested
> in hearing the views of more experienced users.
>
>  
>> Former users will recognize (GRAMPS 1.x & GRAMPS 2.x 3.x) ... ;)
>>
>>> If I understood correctly the description of the
>>> Media should be ideally in line with the sourceref Volume/Page field -
>>> I initially named each media like "Birth certificate of Foo" but that
>>> becomes impractical when several different records are in the same
>>> page.
>> I use sourceref on event for storing information coming from source
>> (data on Image) : ie. volume, page or date on right head corner or in
>> margin, etc ....
>
> You mean the usage of the "notes" and "attributes" filed in the
> sourceref, as opposed to the Shared Information related to the source,
> right?
>
>> There was many discussion on mailing list ...
>> http://www.nabble.com/Sources-and-sourceref---part-2-td10167633.html
>> http://www.nabble.com/sources%2C-subsources-and-sourceref-td9866329.html
>> http://www.nabble.com/local-gallery-tab-in-source-reference-td13292214.html
>
> Yes, I've read them all. Several times, and that's why I initiated
> this thread, since while I was able to gather a  lot of useful
> information from them I remained rather doubtful in some areas,
> particularly the sources/events/images relationships.
>
>> Benny said :
>>> Continental european sources (at least roman catholic) are often
>>> parish registries, which are logs of birth/marriage/death. So every
>>> birth, the priest makes a log entry. The original registries have
>>> no page numbering or sections. The only way of finding the correct
>>> entry is the log date, hence the date in source reference.
>
> Yes, I use the date field in the sourceref this way.
>
>> Also, certificates are often produced one or a few days after the
>> event (which is itself dated in the certificate).
>>
>> I try to avoid using Page/Volum because it is not easy to manage or to
>> retrieve. That's how I work, this suits me.
>> The program is very flexible, everyone can find an operation that suits him.
>
> Very flexible indeed, which is partially why I have this doubts, since
> there are many ways to represent specific associations, all of them
> "working".
>
> You said you avoid Page/Volume... you use a "one page = one source"
> strategy or a "one source = many pages/media objects" one?
>
> Best Regards,
>

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[jerome]

Hello Frederico,


> 1. I use Call number on repository (related to source).
> 2. one page = one image = one source = multiples events (except census)
> 3. census event = one source = (many pages)/media objects = multiples
> persons and events

In fact, seems I use the same way for all my sources...

Source on my census model looks like :

* Title : {census event} {date} {address} ("{}" just for illustration)
* Media objects or Notes (at option)
* SourceRef on Repository (call number tab)

Most of my census events are "civil" (no parish, by city).
Repositories are city/county archives (call number on source)

This could be boring for seizure, but using one source for one
certificate (with Media object) on one (or multiple if copies)
repository, this works for me.

For parish issue maybe, parish archive could be your repository (with
address) and you can still add an URL on internet tab (i.e
http://www.ancestry.co.uk/), current numerical code (i.e Piece number RG
11/2854) will be the call number and one source per page with Note(s)
and Media Object(s).

SourceRef (Page/Volume) on census event (i.e Folio 17 Page 27). Also,
multiples persons sharing this event and source is related to multiples
events (birth, death, residence, or baptism/burial ?, occupation), but I
do not use SourceRef because this could be related to a "secondary
source", informations are indirects (on one primary source)
http://www.gramps-project.org/wiki/index.php?title=Sources#Definition

Yes, I think that :
http://www.gramps-project.org/wiki/index.php?title=Recording_UK_Census_data
uses too many generals names ! Sharing a source named UK census 1881
maybe good for less than 15/20 sources but for more on multiples
places/parishes could be a nightmare for the management.

I made a different page for the French census :
http://www.gramps-project.org/wiki/index.php?title=Recording_FR_Census_data/fr
but I still used English illustrations !!!

Maybe I will generate an English page for
"Recording FR Census data". This could explain how French census looks
like and ideas for other seizure into GRAMPS !



Best regards,

Jérôme



Jérôme a écrit :

> Frederico,
>
>> Sorry, didn't quite understood it fully: you add sourcerefs to Sources
>> in the Events - that much I get - but how to you use that "secondary"
>> bridge? Do you directly add the media object to the person or is it by
>> virtues of the previous adding to the gallery (which would add a
>> "reference" linking the image to the source?
>
> Sorry, I am often too confused
> I add media object (Image) to the Person as a photo (no source)
> (this should not be related to this post ...) :-[
>
>> You said you avoid Page/Volume... you use a "one page = one source"
>> strategy or a "one source = many pages/media objects" one?
>
> My genealogical searches are in France (Parish are before 1792) and
> Germany. Sources management is certainly different ?
>
> 1. I use Call number on repository (related to source).
> 2. one page = one image = one source = multiples events (except census)
> 3. census event = one source = (many pages)/media objects = multiples
> persons and events
>
> I hope this could help !
> Best regards,
>
>
> Jérôme
>
>
> Frederico Muñoz a écrit :
>> Hi,
>>
>> Thanks for your answer.
>>
>> Jérôme <[hidden email]> writes:
>> (...)
>>> I try to keep a rule :
>>>
>>> Event = one source with images and ref (call number) related to repository.
>>>
>>> I use /source/ tab on Person for contemporary time (internet,  
>>> distant cousins), except recent publications which are also sources
>>> which will join events.
>>>
>> Interesting, that makes sense. Since most of the sources are attached
>> to events I was wondering what would the person source do, and that
>> looks like a good approach.
>>
>>> /Media Object/ are just a part of source.
>>> I do not add a source on media  (infinite loop)
>> By part of a source you mean you add it to the source gallery right
>> (assuming it is an image)?
>>
>>> I made 2 groups in my mind :
>>>
>>> * /Person/ & /Event/ & /Place/ & /Family/
>>> * /Source/ & /Media Object/ & /Note/ & /Repository/
>>>
>>> My primary bridge is /Event/ <-> /Source/
>>> secondary /Person/ <--> /Media Object/
>> Sorry, didn't quite understood it fully: you add sourcerefs to Sources
>> in the Events - that much I get - but how to you use that "secondary"
>> bridge? Do you directly add the media object to the person or is it by
>> virtues of the previous adding to the gallery (which would add a
>> "reference" linking the image to the source?
>>
>> If not, well, it still sounds like a good way :) A source would be,
>> say, a book, each page a Media Object that would be added to the
>> gallery of that book (and not linked with the book by a sourceref as
>> in my initial scenario) which would "link" the image to the source by
>> means of an automatically added reference. With this locating the
>> digitised image of a birth record would be much simples since all the
>> pages would be immediately visible in the shared source gallery that
>> is visible when clicking on the sourceref of any event.
>>
>> Sorry to burden you with so many questions but I'm really interested
>> in hearing the views of more experienced users.
>>
>>  
>>> Former users will recognize (GRAMPS 1.x & GRAMPS 2.x 3.x) ... ;)
>>>
>>>> If I understood correctly the description of the
>>>> Media should be ideally in line with the sourceref Volume/Page field -
>>>> I initially named each media like "Birth certificate of Foo" but that
>>>> becomes impractical when several different records are in the same
>>>> page.
>>> I use sourceref on event for storing information coming from source
>>> (data on Image) : ie. volume, page or date on right head corner or in
>>> margin, etc ....
>> You mean the usage of the "notes" and "attributes" filed in the
>> sourceref, as opposed to the Shared Information related to the source,
>> right?
>>
>>> There was many discussion on mailing list ...
>>> http://www.nabble.com/Sources-and-sourceref---part-2-td10167633.html
>>> http://www.nabble.com/sources%2C-subsources-and-sourceref-td9866329.html
>>> http://www.nabble.com/local-gallery-tab-in-source-reference-td13292214.html
>> Yes, I've read them all. Several times, and that's why I initiated
>> this thread, since while I was able to gather a  lot of useful
>> information from them I remained rather doubtful in some areas,
>> particularly the sources/events/images relationships.
>>
>>> Benny said :
>>>> Continental european sources (at least roman catholic) are often
>>>> parish registries, which are logs of birth/marriage/death. So every
>>>> birth, the priest makes a log entry. The original registries have
>>>> no page numbering or sections. The only way of finding the correct
>>>> entry is the log date, hence the date in source reference.
>> Yes, I use the date field in the sourceref this way.
>>
>>> Also, certificates are often produced one or a few days after the
>>> event (which is itself dated in the certificate).
>>>
>>> I try to avoid using Page/Volum because it is not easy to manage or to
>>> retrieve. That's how I work, this suits me.
>>> The program is very flexible, everyone can find an operation that suits him.
>> Very flexible indeed, which is partially why I have this doubts, since
>> there are many ways to represent specific associations, all of them
>> "working".
>>
>> You said you avoid Page/Volume... you use a "one page = one source"
>> strategy or a "one source = many pages/media objects" one?
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>
>
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[Frederico Munoz]

Hello Jérôme,

First of all many thanks for your comments, they are highly
appreciated and were already very useful. I'm sorry for the size of
this messages but I'm really trying to get the most information
possible and I'm toying with the idea of converting what I end up with
in a wiki document to aid beginners with this.

On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 8:17 AM, Jérôme <[hidden email]> wrote:
(...)
> Source on my census model looks like :
>
> * Title : {census event} {date} {address} ("{}" just for illustration)
> * Media objects or Notes (at option)
> * SourceRef on Repository (call number tab)

I see. That's also what I initially had. Out of curiosity you add the
image to the source by specifying the the sourceref in the Media
Object Sources tab or by adding the Media Object to the Source Gallery
tab (or both)? From reading the "Guide pour enregistrer un recensement
avec GRAMPS " it seems that both are used, which in hindsight makes
sense: you add the image to the Gallery of the Source, and then add
the Source Reference to the image. It becomes double-linked - which is
why I was thinking that it was perhaps not a great idea - but in
hindsight it makes some sense to do both, albeit perhaps redundant.

Still not sure if *both* a sourceref in the image pointing to the
source is absolutely needed if the image is added to the Source
Gallery (since this indirectly create a link between the two).

Maybe I'm just complicating things though :/

> Most of my census events are "civil" (no parish, by city).
> Repositories are city/county archives (call number on source)

Right. I have a mixture of civil and parish sources but they all have
the same format (Entity, Book, Page).

> This could be boring for seizure, but using one source for one certificate
> (with Media object) on one (or multiple if copies) repository, this works
> for me.

Yes, I can understand that, it is also what seemed more "natural" to
me. Then I read in the forum that the way sources were "intended" to
work  in GRAMPS was for a Source to be something a bit more general
that constituted a single uniform source, with the details on where
the information is included in the sourceref "Vol/Page" field. This is
what I'm trying to do and this is why I have all this doubts. The
initially one-for-one mapping has the side effect of multiplying the
number of Sources but it simplifies the
event->sourceref->source->media connections. What I'm trying to do is
to understand how does the one source->multiple documents strategy is
intended to work, since at this time the one source->one document way
looks easier.

> For parish issue maybe, parish archive could be your repository (with
> address) and you can still add an URL on internet tab (i.e
> http://www.ancestry.co.uk/), current numerical code (i.e Piece number RG
> 11/2854) will be the call number and one source per page with Note(s) and
> Media Object(s).

Indeed. The problem I have with multiple pages per source (since my
Media Objects are copies of the pages) is that I'm unsure on how to
related them with the Source, if in the Gallery, if by specifying the
source, etc (see above).

OTOH there is something elegant in the Source has a more general thing
(say, "Parish Argh Birth Records") and then "Year 1843, Page 43"
referenced in the sourceref... it complicates finding the image a bit
but gives an interesting sense of having a "mirror" of the actual
books, with one source containing many pages. It simplifies Sources
Management as well (but makes media management more tricky).

> SourceRef (Page/Volume) on census event (i.e Folio 17 Page 27). Also,
> multiples persons sharing this event and source is related to multiples
> events (birth, death, residence, or baptism/burial ?, occupation), but I do
> not use SourceRef because this could be related to a "secondary source",
> informations are indirects (on one primary source)
> http://www.gramps-project.org/wiki/index.php?title=Sources#Definition

This part I didn't understand... if using a one source per page I
would think that there would be no need to specify the Page/Volume in
the sourceref - or even if it is there it serves more to add
information about the whole source than to indicate something specific
to the sourceref. To illustrate let me show how I am doing it now

Scenario: Birth Records - but applicable to most other non-Census situations.
Details: One has a copy of the Birth Record of Jonh H. Doe. This is a
copy of the 1890 Volume of the Parochy of Argh Birth Records, and is
on page 60.

Repository: Parochy of Argh
Source: Parochy of Argh Birth Records
Sourceref: point to the above Source but add "Year 1890, Page 60" to
the sourceref appropriate field.
Image: Add the image to the Source Gallery. The image description
should reflect the way the sourcerefs will reference it (see below).

What this means is that for all the people born in the same Parochy
the Source will be the same, the sourceref different but all the
images will appear in the Source Gallery. When trying to find the scan
of the document that serves as the foundation for a piece of
information one finds the appropriate page in the Source Gallery, much
like handling a real book.

>From what I've been experimenting with having a single Source with
multiple sourcerefs specifying different Volumes and Pages the Media
Object description field should reflect the reference: instead of
naming the copy of Page 3 of the year 1890 of the Parochy of Argh
birth records "Birth record of John H. Doe" I found that having
something like "P. Argh, Birth, Year 1890, Page 3" makes it much
simpler to get to the document when viewing the Event sourceref -
since the sourceref points to the "global" source and specifies "Year
1890, Page3".

> Yes, I think that :
> http://www.gramps-project.org/wiki/index.php?title=Recording_UK_Census_data
> uses too many generals names ! Sharing a source named UK census 1881 maybe
> good for less than 15/20 sources but for more on multiples places/parishes
> could be a nightmare for the management.

True. On the other hand using a one source == one page also leads to
the proliferation of Sources: each person would have a different
source for their birth record, even if they were contained in the same
physical source.


> I made a different page for the French census :
> http://www.gramps-project.org/wiki/index.php?title=Recording_FR_Census_data/fr
> but I still used English illustrations !!!

Thanks for the pointer, I have read it with interested - and made
reference to it above - since it presents a different way to go at it
than the UK one. In particular I see that you have added the image to
the Source Gallery, something that I also find interesting but was
absent from the UK Census example.

> Maybe I will generate an English page for
> "Recording FR Census data". This could explain how French census looks like
> and ideas for other seizure into GRAMPS !

Well, it would be good as a general idea for others, but I can read
French well enough so I've already benefited from it.

Best Regards,

Frederico Muñoz

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[Frederico Munoz]

Hi,

Sorry for the extra reply but just found something that I was
overlooking and that seems to make a difference:
(...)
>> Source on my census model looks like :
>>
>> * Title : {census event} {date} {address} ("{}" just for illustration)
>> * Media objects or Notes (at option)
>> * SourceRef on Repository (call number tab)
(...)
>> For parish issue maybe, parish archive could be your repository (with
>> address) and you can still add an URL on internet tab (i.e
>> http://www.ancestry.co.uk/), current numerical code (i.e Piece number RG
>> 11/2854) will be the call number and one source per page with Note(s) and
>> Media Object(s).

I read this before my last message but was unsure what "call number"
exactly meant since I didn't saw it. I have now found it in the
Source->Repository reference and it does seem to make a difference on
how to approach things:

If there is a call number in there then at least part of my previous
division was wrong. I had:

Repository: Parochy of Argh
Source: Parochy of Argh Birth Records
Event sourceref: point to the above Source but add "Year 1890, Page
60" to the Vol/Pag field.

With the  call number in the Source->Repository reference this would
change since the "Year" could perhaps be put in the "call number".
Heck, perhaps the whole detailed entry (page, registry number) could
end up in the call number, but then I would definitely have to change
my approach to one-source-per-page. This adds yet another layer of
complexity to the available choices.

I'm really lost in how to apply this to what I think are rather
typical sources: birth, marriage and death records kept in civil or
Catholic archives and that are generally composed of one or more books
per year (or group of years), with a specific page (and register
number if applicable) that is generally also available as a scanned
image. Between the Repository, Sources, Call Number, Sourcerefs (and
Vol/Pag field) the number of possible permutations is not small.

Regards,

Frederico Muñoz

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[Martin Steer-2]

"Frederico Muñoz" <[hidden email]> writes:

[snip]

>> Yes, I think that :
>> http://www.gramps-project.org/wiki/index.php?title=Recording_UK_Census_data
>> uses too many generals names ! Sharing a source named UK census 1881 maybe
>> good for less than 15/20 sources but for more on multiples places/parishes
>> could be a nightmare for the management.
>
> True. On the other hand using a one source == one page also leads to
> the proliferation of Sources: each person would have a different
> source for their birth record, even if they were contained in the same
> physical source.
>

I think that both these criticisms are correct. A sort of solution is to
use both methods. Here's a clarification of what I tried to say earlier.
I hope you'll forgive me for the repetition.

Gramps offers what is basically a conventional referencing method. If
I'm writing a book I might have "UK census, 1881, p. 36", which allows
someone to find the source I'm referring to. A useful kind of book will
also have an index to my use of sources, so someone can see where I've
relied on the UK census. Gramps provides this also, under the references
tab in the source editor.

What gramps won't show me, in the form of an index, is where I've relied
on page 36 of the 1881 UK census.

So I start to use sources such as "UK census 1881/Edward Steer", with
the following advantages:

1) I can see who and what I'm talking about;

2) detailed reference info can still be controlled, by making the
1881 UK census into a kind of repository;

3) I never have to type "p. 36" again (no, I don't like the clipboard).

I also continue to use the big generic source method where that seems
appropriate, e.g. for online bdm indexes.

--
Martin

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[jerome]

Hi,

> I read this before my last message but was unsure what "call number"
> exactly meant since I didn't saw it

On Gramps' example
http://gramps.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/gramps/branches/gramps30/example/gramps/example.gramps
you can see :

<sources>
  <source id="S0003" handle="_X5TJQC9JXU4RKT6VAX" change="1185438865">
   <stitle>Import from test2.ged</stitle>
   <noteref hlink="_ac3804a842b21358c97"/>
   <data_item key="Creation date" value="24 APR 1999"/>
   <data_item key="Generated by" value="ROOTSV 5.01"/>
   <reporef hlink="_a701e99f93e5434f6f3" callno="CA-123-LL-456_Num/ber"
medium="Film"/>
  </source>
  <source id="S0002" handle="_VUBKMQTA2XZG1V6QP8" change="1185438865">
   <stitle>World of the Wierd</stitle>
   <sauthor>John Jacob Jinglehiemerschmitt</sauthor>
   <sabbrev>WOTW</sabbrev>
   <noteref hlink="_ac3804a8405171ef666"/>
   <data_item key="Book Cover Type" value="Paperback"/>
   <reporef hlink="_a701e99f93e5434f6f3" callno="what-321-ever"
medium="Photo"/>
   <reporef hlink="_a701ead12841521cd4d" callno="nothing-0"
medium="Manuscript"/>
  </source>
</sources>

Call number is a Repository Reference on Source.

> * SourceRef on Repository (call number tab)

rather RepositoryRef on source ... :-[

>  Heck, perhaps the whole detailed entry (page, registry number) could
> end up in the call number, but then I would definitely have to change
> my approach to one-source-per-page.

Vol/Pag field is the data on source at date of source, a log time for
source, isn't ?

Call number is related to repository. The same source could have
multiples "call number" according to repositories which reference it.
(copy on county / original)

Seems Gramps is conform to GEDCOM 5.5. specification

> SOURCE_CALL_NUMBER: = {Size=1:120}
> An identification or reference description used to file and retrieve items from the holdings of a repository.
> SOURCE_DESCRIPTION: = {Size=1:248}
> A free form text block used to describe the source from which information was obtained. This text block is used by those systems which cannot use a pointer to a source record. It must contain a descriptive title, who created the work, where and when it was created, and where is source data stored. The developer should encourage users to use an appropriate style for forming this free form bibliographic reference. Developers are encouraged to support the SOURCE_RECORD method of reporting bibliographic reference descriptions.
>
> SOURCE_DESCRIPTIVE_TITLE: = {Size=1:248}
> The title of the work, record, or item and, when appropriate, the title of the larger work or series of which it is a part.
>
> For a published work, a book for example, might have a title plus the title of the series of which the book is a part. A magazine article would have a title plus the title of the magazine that published the article.
>
> For An unpublished work, such as:
>
>     * A letter might include the date, the sender, and the receiver.
>     * A transaction between a buyer and seller might have their names and the transaction date.
>     * A family Bible containing genealogical information might have past and present owners and a physical description of the book.
>     * A personal interview would cite the informant and interviewer.
>
> SOURCE_FILED_BY_ENTRY: = {Size= 1:60}
> This entry is to provide a short title used for sorting, filing, and retrieving source records.
>
> SOURCE_JURISDICTION_PLACE: = {Size=1:120}
> <PLACE_VALUE>
> The name of the lowest jurisdiction that encompasses all lower-level places named in this source. For example, "Oneida, Idaho" would be used as a source jurisdiction place for events occurring in the various towns within Oneida County. "Idaho" would be the source jurisdiction place if the events recorded took place in other counties as well as Oneida County.
>
> SOURCE_MEDIA_TYPE: = {Size=1:15}
> [ audio | book | card | electronic | fiche | film | magazine |
> manuscript | map | newspaper | photo | tombstone | video ]
> A code, selected from one of the media classifications choices above, that indicates the type of material in which the referenced source is stored.
>
> SOURCE_ORIGINATOR: = {Size=1:248}
> The person, agency, or entity who created the record. For a published work, this could be the author, compiler, transcriber, abstractor, or editor. For an unpublished source, this may be an individual, a government agency, church organization, or private organization, etc.
>
> SOURCE_PUBLICATION_FACTS: = {Size=248}
> When and where the record was created. For published works, this includes information such as the city of publication, name of the publisher, and year of publication.
>
> For an unpublished work, it includes the date the record was created and the place where it was created. For example, the county and state of residence of a person making a declaration for a pension or the city and state of residence of the writer of a letter.

http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~pmcbride/gedcom/55gcch2.htm#SOURCE_CALL_NUMBER

> True. On the other hand using a one source == one page also leads to
> the proliferation of Sources: each person would have a different
> source for their birth record, even if they were contained in the same
> physical source.

Yes, I have a lot of sources !
Also, I can make some translations with the Note editor (one source =
one image = one page) + using filter on Note. (do not need to
share/duplicate a Note if it is still on Source)

> I think that both these criticisms are correct. A sort of solution is to
> use both methods.

+1, I agree !


PS: Detailed reports display Endnotes, endnote on event (source
references on event).


Regards,

Jérôme



Frederico Muñoz a écrit :

> Hi,
>
> Sorry for the extra reply but just found something that I was
> overlooking and that seems to make a difference:
> (...)
>>> Source on my census model looks like :
>>>
>>> * Title : {census event} {date} {address} ("{}" just for illustration)
>>> * Media objects or Notes (at option)
>>> * SourceRef on Repository (call number tab)
> (...)
>>> For parish issue maybe, parish archive could be your repository (with
>>> address) and you can still add an URL on internet tab (i.e
>>> http://www.ancestry.co.uk/), current numerical code (i.e Piece number RG
>>> 11/2854) will be the call number and one source per page with Note(s) and
>>> Media Object(s).
>
> I read this before my last message but was unsure what "call number"
> exactly meant since I didn't saw it. I have now found it in the
> Source->Repository reference and it does seem to make a difference on
> how to approach things:
>
> If there is a call number in there then at least part of my previous
> division was wrong. I had:
>
> Repository: Parochy of Argh
> Source: Parochy of Argh Birth Records
> Event sourceref: point to the above Source but add "Year 1890, Page
> 60" to the Vol/Pag field.
>
> With the  call number in the Source->Repository reference this would
> change since the "Year" could perhaps be put in the "call number".
> Heck, perhaps the whole detailed entry (page, registry number) could
> end up in the call number, but then I would definitely have to change
> my approach to one-source-per-page. This adds yet another layer of
> complexity to the available choices.
>
> I'm really lost in how to apply this to what I think are rather
> typical sources: birth, marriage and death records kept in civil or
> Catholic archives and that are generally composed of one or more books
> per year (or group of years), with a specific page (and register
> number if applicable) that is generally also available as a scanned
> image. Between the Repository, Sources, Call Number, Sourcerefs (and
> Vol/Pag field) the number of possible permutations is not small.
>
> Regards,
>
> Frederico Muñoz
>

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[OldAl]

On Mon, 15 Sep 2008 04:31:26 pm Jérôme wrote:
> Hi,
>
> > I read this before my last message but was unsure what "call number"
> > exactly meant since I didn't saw it
>
> On Gramps' example
>
http://gramps.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/gramps/branches/gramps30/example/gramps/example.gramps

> you can see :
>
> <sources>
>   <source id="S0003" handle="_X5TJQC9JXU4RKT6VAX" change="1185438865">
>    <stitle>Import from test2.ged</stitle>
>    <noteref hlink="_ac3804a842b21358c97"/>
>    <data_item key="Creation date" value="24 APR 1999"/>
>    <data_item key="Generated by" value="ROOTSV 5.01"/>
>    <reporef hlink="_a701e99f93e5434f6f3" callno="CA-123-LL-456_Num/ber"
> medium="Film"/>
>   </source>
>   <source id="S0002" handle="_VUBKMQTA2XZG1V6QP8" change="1185438865">
>    <stitle>World of the Wierd</stitle>
>    <sauthor>John Jacob Jinglehiemerschmitt</sauthor>
>    <sabbrev>WOTW</sabbrev>
>    <noteref hlink="_ac3804a8405171ef666"/>
>    <data_item key="Book Cover Type" value="Paperback"/>
>    <reporef hlink="_a701e99f93e5434f6f3" callno="what-321-ever"
> medium="Photo"/>
>    <reporef hlink="_a701ead12841521cd4d" callno="nothing-0"
> medium="Manuscript"/>
>   </source>
> </sources>
>
> Call number is a Repository Reference on Source.
>
> > * SourceRef on Repository (call number tab)
>
> rather RepositoryRef on source ... :-[
>
> >  Heck, perhaps the whole detailed entry (page, registry number) could
> > end up in the call number, but then I would definitely have to change
> > my approach to one-source-per-page.
>
> Vol/Pag field is the data on source at date of source, a log time for
> source, isn't ?
>
> Call number is related to repository. The same source could have
> multiples "call number" according to repositories which reference it.
> (copy on county / original)
>
> Seems Gramps is conform to GEDCOM 5.5. specification

It makes a valiant effort to conform...  As it is non-reversible (exported
data and then imported differ significantly.  Even when the imported data is
again exported, the result is different from the source...).

I would only use as a last measure or for initial "population" of the data
base.

OldAl.
>
> > SOURCE_CALL_NUMBER: = {Size=1:120}
> > An identification or reference description used to file and retrieve items
from the holdings of a repository.
> > SOURCE_DESCRIPTION: = {Size=1:248}
> > A free form text block used to describe the source from which information
was obtained. This text block is used by those systems which cannot use a
pointer to a source record. It must contain a descriptive title, who created
the work, where and when it was created, and where is source data stored. The
developer should encourage users to use an appropriate style for forming this
free form bibliographic reference. Developers are encouraged to support the
SOURCE_RECORD method of reporting bibliographic reference descriptions.
> >
> > SOURCE_DESCRIPTIVE_TITLE: = {Size=1:248}
> > The title of the work, record, or item and, when appropriate, the title of
the larger work or series of which it is a part.
> >
> > For a published work, a book for example, might have a title plus the
title of the series of which the book is a part. A magazine article would
have a title plus the title of the magazine that published the article.
> >
> > For An unpublished work, such as:
> >
> >     * A letter might include the date, the sender, and the receiver.
> >     * A transaction between a buyer and seller might have their names and
the transaction date.
> >     * A family Bible containing genealogical information might have past
and present owners and a physical description of the book.
> >     * A personal interview would cite the informant and interviewer.
> >
> > SOURCE_FILED_BY_ENTRY: = {Size= 1:60}
> > This entry is to provide a short title used for sorting, filing, and
retrieving source records.
> >
> > SOURCE_JURISDICTION_PLACE: = {Size=1:120}
> > <PLACE_VALUE>
> > The name of the lowest jurisdiction that encompasses all lower-level
places named in this source. For example, "Oneida, Idaho" would be used as a
source jurisdiction place for events occurring in the various towns within
Oneida County. "Idaho" would be the source jurisdiction place if the events
recorded took place in other counties as well as Oneida County.
> >
> > SOURCE_MEDIA_TYPE: = {Size=1:15}
> > [ audio | book | card | electronic | fiche | film | magazine |
> > manuscript | map | newspaper | photo | tombstone | video ]
> > A code, selected from one of the media classifications choices above, that
indicates the type of material in which the referenced source is stored.
> >
> > SOURCE_ORIGINATOR: = {Size=1:248}
> > The person, agency, or entity who created the record. For a published
work, this could be the author, compiler, transcriber, abstractor, or editor.
For an unpublished source, this may be an individual, a government agency,
church organization, or private organization, etc.
> >
> > SOURCE_PUBLICATION_FACTS: = {Size=248}
> > When and where the record was created. For published works, this includes
information such as the city of publication, name of the publisher, and year
of publication.
> >
> > For an unpublished work, it includes the date the record was created and
the place where it was created. For example, the county and state of
residence of a person making a declaration for a pension or the city and
state of residence of the writer of a letter.
>
>
http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~pmcbride/gedcom/55gcch2.htm#SOURCE_CALL_NUMBER

>
> > True. On the other hand using a one source == one page also leads to
> > the proliferation of Sources: each person would have a different
> > source for their birth record, even if they were contained in the same
> > physical source.
>
> Yes, I have a lot of sources !
> Also, I can make some translations with the Note editor (one source =
> one image = one page) + using filter on Note. (do not need to
> share/duplicate a Note if it is still on Source)
>
> > I think that both these criticisms are correct. A sort of solution is to
> > use both methods.
>
> +1, I agree !
>
>
> PS: Detailed reports display Endnotes, endnote on event (source
> references on event).
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Jérôme
>
>
>
> Frederico Muñoz a écrit :
> > Hi,
> >
> > Sorry for the extra reply but just found something that I was
> > overlooking and that seems to make a difference:
> > (...)
> >>> Source on my census model looks like :
> >>>
> >>> * Title : {census event} {date} {address} ("{}" just for illustration)
> >>> * Media objects or Notes (at option)
> >>> * SourceRef on Repository (call number tab)
> > (...)
> >>> For parish issue maybe, parish archive could be your repository (with
> >>> address) and you can still add an URL on internet tab (i.e
> >>> http://www.ancestry.co.uk/), current numerical code (i.e Piece number RG
> >>> 11/2854) will be the call number and one source per page with Note(s)

and

> >>> Media Object(s).
> >
> > I read this before my last message but was unsure what "call number"
> > exactly meant since I didn't saw it. I have now found it in the
> > Source->Repository reference and it does seem to make a difference on
> > how to approach things:
> >
> > If there is a call number in there then at least part of my previous
> > division was wrong. I had:
> >
> > Repository: Parochy of Argh
> > Source: Parochy of Argh Birth Records
> > Event sourceref: point to the above Source but add "Year 1890, Page
> > 60" to the Vol/Pag field.
> >
> > With the  call number in the Source->Repository reference this would
> > change since the "Year" could perhaps be put in the "call number".
> > Heck, perhaps the whole detailed entry (page, registry number) could
> > end up in the call number, but then I would definitely have to change
> > my approach to one-source-per-page. This adds yet another layer of
> > complexity to the available choices.
> >
> > I'm really lost in how to apply this to what I think are rather
> > typical sources: birth, marriage and death records kept in civil or
> > Catholic archives and that are generally composed of one or more books
> > per year (or group of years), with a specific page (and register
> > number if applicable) that is generally also available as a scanned
> > image. Between the Repository, Sources, Call Number, Sourcerefs (and
> > Vol/Pag field) the number of possible permutations is not small.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Frederico Muñoz
> >
>
>
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--
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http://akabaila.pcug.org.au/StructuralAnalysis

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[Frederico Munoz]

Hi,

On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 3:15 AM, Martin Steer <[hidden email]> wrote:
(...)
> I think that both these criticisms are correct. A sort of solution is to
> use both methods. Here's a clarification of what I tried to say earlier.
> I hope you'll forgive me for the repetition.

Of course, I read it with interest originally, didn't get to it
because it sort of merged with some other points I was making in my
answer to Jérôme.

> Gramps offers what is basically a conventional referencing method. If
> I'm writing a book I might have "UK census, 1881, p. 36", which allows
> someone to find the source I'm referring to. A useful kind of book will
> also have an index to my use of sources, so someone can see where I've
> relied on the UK census. Gramps provides this also, under the references
> tab in the source editor.

True.

> What gramps won't show me, in the form of an index, is where I've relied
> on page 36 of the 1881 UK census.

Not in form of an index but it would be listed in the Vol/Page
sourceref field. But true, not indexed.

> So I start to use sources such as "UK census 1881/Edward Steer", with
> the following advantages:
>
> 1) I can see who and what I'm talking about;
>
> 2) detailed reference info can still be controlled, by making the
> 1881 UK census into a kind of repository;
>
> 3) I never have to type "p. 36" again (no, I don't like the clipboard).

Ah, I see, an hybrid approach. Since most - if not all - of my sources
are at this time birth and baptism records (and other Catholic and
Civil registries of the same kind) that would mean in my case that
every copy of a page I have would be one source. This is possible
indeed, and as I said is the way I initially tackled it, but I'm
trying to see if I can overcome some of the disadvantages of  the many
pages == one source approach by following the reasoning that was
behind the creation of the necessary fields to make that possible.

My question was pretty general though so I'll take what I've learned
from all the comments and proceed with smaller, more concrete
questions to which I would surely be glad to have your input.

Regards,

Frederico

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[Frederico Munoz]

Hi,

Many thanks for your comments, they were very helpful.

On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 7:31 AM, Jérôme <[hidden email]> wrote:
(...)
> Call number is a Repository Reference on Source.

Thanks. I've been reading about it and if I understood it correctly it
is a way - and rather clever - to avoid adding sources just because
there was a change in medium. As I see it after reading about it:

The document that supports the birth of John Doe is a baptism record.
That record is originally in the Baptism Books of the Parish of Argh,
Page 23 of the 2nd volume of the year 1850. However that is not the
only place where the source is available:

* The original is in the above mentioned book
* There is a microfilm in the District  Archive that covers "Baptism
Records of Argh, 1840-1860". That microfilm has a call number of
MF1234 in the District Archive
* The same record was digitalised and is available in the webpage of
the National Archive

Looking at it (and not assuming a one-page/one-source approach) I would have:

* A single Source - Baptism Records of the Parish of Argh
* Three Repositories: the Parish Archives, the District Archive and
the National Archive
* The RepositoryRef in each source would indicate the specific call
number: perhaps nothing in the case of the actual books, the MF1234
for the microfilms and the URL for the Digital Archive.

Not sure if it is intended to work this way but if it isn't, well,
looks nice in any event :)


>> * SourceRef on Repository (call number tab)
>
> rather RepositoryRef on source ... :-[
>

Yes, my mistake.

(...)
> Vol/Pag field is the data on source at date of source, a log time for
> source, isn't ?

Well, I use it to reference the exact volume (usually a year) and page
in the book, since I use a shared source approach (or try to).


> Call number is related to repository. The same source could have multiples
> "call number" according to repositories which reference it.
> (copy on county / original)

Thanks for explaining, I hope the above description is not far of the mark.

I'm going to split my doubts into smaller, more constrained messages
since I think I was a bit to broad in the way I wrote my original
message. I still have some doubts :)

Regards,

Frederico

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[Laura Mellen]

Many thanks, I have found this part of your post to the list (below) very helpful. I've been struggling with sources ever since I started using GRAMPS just over a year ago. To make matters worse, things were really messed up upon importing from my gedcoms. This is a very clear description and helps me out. Thank you!
Laura

> Thanks. I've been reading about it and if I understood it correctly it
> is a way - and rather clever - to avoid adding sources just because
> there was a change in medium. As I see it after reading about it:
>
> The document that supports the birth of John Doe is a baptism record.
> That record is originally in the Baptism Books of the Parish of Argh,
> Page 23 of the 2nd volume of the year 1850. However that is not the
> only place where the source is available:
>
> * The original is in the above mentioned book
> * There is a microfilm in the District Archive that covers "Baptism
> Records of Argh, 1840-1860". That microfilm has a call number of
> MF1234 in the District Archive
> * The same record was digitalised and is available in the webpage of
> the National Archive
>
> Looking at it (and not assuming a one-page/one-source approach) I would have:
>
> * A single Source - Baptism Records of the Parish of Argh
> * Three Repositories: the Parish Archives, the District Archive and
> the National Archive
> * The RepositoryRef in each source would indicate the specific call
> number: perhaps nothing in the case of the actual books, the MF1234
> for the microfilms and the URL for the Digital Archive.

---

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[Frederico Munoz]

Hello,

On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 1:14 AM, Laura Mellen <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Many thanks, I have found this part of your post to the list (below) very
> helpful.

Glad to be of help; I hope I'm not misleading you though, this is my
take on it and it can be possibly, er, less than correct.

> I've been struggling with sources ever since I started using GRAMPS
> just over a year ago.

Hehe, at least I'm only struggling with the for a month now. Part of
the problem I have is that I can see that the "infrastructure" is
there for a reason and that someone had very clear ideas on how things
should work, but then there is not enough information on how to use
it... I feel like at the wheel of a ship with lots of noticeably
well-thought out buttons and levers but only using forward/reverse
because I'm unsure on how to use all the others :)

>To make matters worse, things were really messed up
> upon importing from my gedcoms. This is a very clear description and helps
> me out. Thank you!

More than welcome, just trying to make sense of things myself.

Cheers,

Frederico

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[Martin Steer-2]

"Frederico Muñoz" <[hidden email]> writes:

>
>> What gramps won't show me, in the form of an index, is where I've
>> relied on page 36 of the 1881 UK census.
>
> Not in form of an index but it would be listed in the Vol/Page
> sourceref field. But true, not indexed.
>

Well, you can see it in e.g. an event editor, but that doesn't help in
finding multiple instances. Say you have many refs to "Achive X vol.3,
p.9". You want to change these to "Archive Y, vol.2". How do you find
the references as a group?

From what I can see, the reference details are not available for
searching or filtering of any kind. It would help if the source view had
a column for e.g. vol./page, but it doesn't.

> but I'm trying to see if I can overcome some of the disadvantages of
> the many pages == one source approach by following the reasoning that
> was behind the creation of the necessary fields to make that possible.

I was suggesting that there are problems both with 1) making every page
a source, and 2) allowing one source to have many pages.

I use both approaches. Which I choose depends on the source, and what I
want to do with it (large, small, book, pamphlet, online index,
conversation...; keep it, replace it later, check on it...).

Using two (or more) approaches is messy, but sources are messy. Just
look at any software designed for managing bibliographies. That said, I
also think that gramps has some design deficiencies here.

>
> My question was pretty general though so I'll take what I've learned
> from all the comments and proceed with smaller, more concrete
> questions to which I would surely be glad to have your input.

A good idea. Thank you.

--
Martin

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[Benny Malengier]

2008/9/18 Frederico Muñoz <[hidden email]>

Hi,

Many thanks for your comments, they were very helpful.

On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 7:31 AM, Jérôme <[hidden email]> wrote:
(...)

> Call number is a Repository Reference on Source.

Thanks. I've been reading about it and if I understood it correctly it
is a way - and rather clever - to avoid adding sources just because
there was a change in medium. As I see it after reading about it:

The document that supports the birth of John Doe is a baptism record.
That record is originally in the Baptism Books of the Parish of Argh,
Page 23 of the 2nd volume of the year 1850. However that is not the
only place where the source is available:

* The original is in the above mentioned book
* There is a microfilm in the District  Archive that covers "Baptism
Records of Argh, 1840-1860". That microfilm has a call number of
MF1234 in the District Archive
* The same record was digitalised and is available in the webpage of
the National Archive

Looking at it (and not assuming a one-page/one-source approach) I would have:

* A single Source - Baptism Records of the Parish of Argh
* Three Repositories: the Parish Archives, the District Archive and
the National Archive
* The RepositoryRef in each source would indicate the specific call
number: perhaps nothing in the case of the actual books, the MF1234
for the microfilms and the URL for the Digital Archive.

Not sure if it is intended to work this way but if it isn't, well,
looks nice in any event :)

It is intended to work as you describe.

Benny

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[Frederico Munoz]

Hello,

On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 6:13 AM, Martin Steer <[hidden email]> wrote:
(...)
> Well, you can see it in e.g. an event editor, but that doesn't help in
> finding multiple instances. Say you have many refs to "Achive X vol.3,
> p.9". You want to change these to "Archive Y, vol.2". How do you find
> the references as a group?

True, I don't. While this isn't what bothers me the most it would be
at the very least helpful.

> From what I can see, the reference details are not available for
> searching or filtering of any kind. It would help if the source view had
> a column for e.g. vol./page, but it doesn't.

The source view wouldn't be the one with that column  I think, since
the Source itself doesn't have any Volume/Page and the Sources View
lists the Sources and not the references. Perhaps a Source Reference
View (?) were that information would be available? Not sure how this
would work with a free-form field though :/ Maybe in the Source
"References" tab that extra field?

(...)
> I was suggesting that there are problems both with 1) making every page
> a source, and 2) allowing one source to have many pages.

Yes, I know... it's just that I was expecting that some of the
apparent shortcomings of the latter method were more a fruit of my
inexperience. Given that for all purposes all the answers I received
seem to favour the former method perhaps this isn't exactly true.

> I use both approaches. Which I choose depends on the source, and what I
> want to do with it (large, small, book, pamphlet, online index,
> conversation...; keep it, replace it later, check on it...).

My problem is that I'm presently only referring to one type of source,
and one that would be the one ideal to show the advantages of the
"multiple pages per source" approach: birth and baptism records. This
would be the ones that in my mind would fit that approach (just as
pamphlets look like something ideal to a one page/one source
approach). As I said the fact that most people seem to be using the
more direct approach to these kind of sources tells me that maybe my
doubts have no real answer and that I'm ultimately better served by
using that approach, regardless of some other fine points of the
other.

> Using two (or more) approaches is messy, but sources are messy. Just
> look at any software designed for managing bibliographies. That said, I
> also think that gramps has some design deficiencies here.

My biggest complain about the way it works right now is merely that it
seems impossible to go from the event to having the scanned image in
front of the eyes in a way that seems logical. If the Source has 20
pages it would required careful naming of the Media Objects to work,
which means that there would be no real link between the sourceref and
the media object that represents it. This is important to me (it maybe
secondary to others, of course).

>> My question was pretty general though so I'll take what I've learned
>> from all the comments and proceed with smaller, more concrete
>> questions to which I would surely be glad to have your input.
>
> A good idea. Thank you.

Well, after the repository and sources post - which I understood
thanks to the help of Jérôme and others - I was indeed going to add
more concrete questions... but when I tried to write them I noticed
that I was repeating most of what I had already asked. Either nobody
uses Sources in the "general" way for this type of records of if they
use it then I'm the only one that considers important to be able to
related sourceref to the corresponding image... whatever the reason it
would be cumbersome to the list to rehash the same questions.

So I will pay attention to future messages and developments, perhaps
at a latter stage these perceived shortcomings are overcome. The
"general" Source approach appeals to me as much more clean and
readable in the long run - provided this issues are solved somehow.

Regards,

Frederico

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[Frederico Munoz]

Hi,

A recent experience changed my mind slightly on this subject:

On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 6:13 AM, Martin Steer <[hidden email]> wrote:
(...)
> Say you have many refs to "Achive X vol.3,
> p.9". You want to change these to "Archive Y, vol.2". How do you find
> the references as a group?

I sort of downplayed the importance of this in my previous post but
just yesterday I was using a baptism record as source reference to at
least 10 different events. I made a mistake in my Source Reference
entry (wrong book year). What this meant was that I had to hunt down
by hand every source reference and remove it. While the Scratchpad
makes this easier than doing it completely by hand it is still IMO not
optimal.

Regards,

Frederico

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