Startup person selection

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Re: Source-based data entry [Was: Startup person selection]

enno
Hello all,

>> or a simple editor that stores data as XML, or XHTML, which is a term
>> I learned from Evernote, I think.
>
> The number of XML editors that could be classed as 'simple' is very
> small, unfortunately, as most of them are designed to be able to
> handle anything the XML standard defines (which is a LOT). There are
> only two open source ones (XMLCopyEditor and Emacs with psgml or nxml).

I understand, but I'm not looking for an XML editor, but for an editor
that can export it, or rather XHTML.

I mention that, because I can imagine a fellow user clipping web pages
to Evernote, or OneNote, or whatever product we can find on Linux or Mac
OS, and then have Gramps import these. This only works if there is an
export format, or an API so that Gramps can grab data from the app or
server.

Similarly I can imagine someone using a word processor for the same
purpose, copy pasting content from the web, or typing research notes and
transcriptions while reading a book or some piece of handwriting.

What I would like then is to expand these editors so that one can not
only mark text for formatting purposes, like emphasizing, underlining,
whatever, one can also mark pieces as a person's name, event dates and
places, etc. etc., in such a way that the user doesn't need to think
about markup codes, and Gramps can process it.

In my view, this editor does not need to reside inside Gramps, but of
course it helps if Gramps can display imported content in a proper way,
and process its semantic markup.

I've seen this marking thing in an old version of Family Tree Maker, but
I haven't seen it elsewhere, yet.

Regards,

Enno




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Re: Source-based data entry [Was: Startup person selection]

ACProctor
You raise a good point Enno because different people will read some of these posts differently.

For instance, I mentioned both "HTML editor" and "XML editor" in a previous post. However, the editor I use (which was based on CKEditor but now
changing to Textbox.io) is WYSIWYG. That means it just behaves like a normal text editor, except that is has special functions for marking sections in
particular ways and displaying them in particular ways. An example everyone will know of is when adding a hyperlink to a rich text document: you mark
the section and add the URL to it, after which it looks different to the surrounding text. It would be similar for person references, place
references, etc.

So when I mentioned "HTML editor", I simply meant that the core of the editor manipulates HTML, and not that the user ever sees it. CKEditor, for
instance, has plug-ins that allow you to edit different mark-up (or markdown) languages -- they first convert it to HTML, allow you to edit it with a
WYSIWYG editor, and then convert what's left back to your original syntax.

This is how I implemented an editor for my own semantic mark-up. It happens to be XML but that's irrelevant, really. I simply convert it to an HTML
representation, allow it to be edited, and then convert what's left back to my own XML form. The end-user never sees either raw HTML or XML.

One last note about TEI that I forgot to mention. I appreciate that it is a recognised standard, and so looks really appealing. I still stand by the
fact it's focused on presentational formatting and structure rather than semantics of the text. However, if Gramps -- or any other product -- utilised
TEI for transcription and/or research narrative (my mark-up had to cope with both) then you would only be using a fraction of TEI's complexity.
Implicitly, this means that any other product trying import data from Gramps has an enormous burden imposed on it: it has to be able to accept ALL of
the TEI possibilities, unless the Gramps's usage has defined a subset, in which case it's effectively a proprietary mark-up and no longer TEI.

Tony

On 25/12/2018 20:40, Enno Borgsteede wrote:

> Hello all,
>
>>> or a simple editor that stores data as XML, or XHTML, which is a term
>>> I learned from Evernote, I think.
>>
>> The number of XML editors that could be classed as 'simple' is very small, unfortunately, as most of them are designed to be able to handle
>> anything the XML standard defines (which is a LOT). There are only two open source ones (XMLCopyEditor and Emacs with psgml or nxml).
>
> I understand, but I'm not looking for an XML editor, but for an editor that can export it, or rather XHTML.
>
> I mention that, because I can imagine a fellow user clipping web pages to Evernote, or OneNote, or whatever product we can find on Linux or Mac OS,
> and then have Gramps import these. This only works if there is an export format, or an API so that Gramps can grab data from the app or server.
>
> Similarly I can imagine someone using a word processor for the same purpose, copy pasting content from the web, or typing research notes and
> transcriptions while reading a book or some piece of handwriting.
>
> What I would like then is to expand these editors so that one can not only mark text for formatting purposes, like emphasizing, underlining,
> whatever, one can also mark pieces as a person's name, event dates and places, etc. etc., in such a way that the user doesn't need to think about
> markup codes, and Gramps can process it.
>
> In my view, this editor does not need to reside inside Gramps, but of course it helps if Gramps can display imported content in a proper way, and
> process its semantic markup.
>
> I've seen this marking thing in an old version of Family Tree Maker, but I haven't seen it elsewhere, yet.
>
> Regards,
>
> Enno
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Gramps-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users
> https://gramps-project.org
>


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Re: Source-based data entry [Was: Startup person selection]

Nick Hall
In reply to this post by enno
On 25/12/2018 20:40, Enno Borgsteede wrote:
> What I would like then is to expand these editors so that one can not
> only mark text for formatting purposes, like emphasizing, underlining,
> whatever, one can also mark pieces as a person's name, event dates and
> places, etc. etc., in such a way that the user doesn't need to think
> about markup codes, and Gramps can process it.


Exactly.  We need to be able to mark information relating to people and
events.


>
> In my view, this editor does not need to reside inside Gramps, but of
> course it helps if Gramps can display imported content in a proper
> way, and process its semantic markup.


We can't really expect Gramps users to use an external tool. Giving them
the option is fine, but we should also provide the functionality within
Gramps.  This may mean extending the functionality of the existing
editor, or writing a new one.


Nick.




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Re: Source-based data entry [Was: Startup person selection]

Nick Hall
In reply to this post by ACProctor
On 25/12/2018 21:24, Tony Proctor wrote:

> One last note about TEI that I forgot to mention. I appreciate that it
> is a recognised standard, and so looks really appealing. I still stand
> by the fact it's focused on presentational formatting and structure
> rather than semantics of the text. However, if Gramps -- or any other
> product -- utilised TEI for transcription and/or research narrative
> (my mark-up had to cope with both) then you would only be using a
> fraction of TEI's complexity. Implicitly, this means that any other
> product trying import data from Gramps has an enormous burden imposed
> on it: it has to be able to accept ALL of the TEI possibilities,
> unless the Gramps's usage has defined a subset, in which case it's
> effectively a proprietary mark-up and no longer TEI.

I agree.  I don't find TEI a particularly appealing solution.

Nick.




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Re: Source-based data entry [Was: Startup person selection]

Craig Treleaven
In reply to this post by Nick Hall
> On Dec 25, 2018, at 5:40 PM, Nick Hall <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On 25/12/2018 20:40, Enno Borgsteede wrote:
>> What I would like then is to expand these editors so that one can not only mark text for formatting purposes, like emphasizing, underlining, whatever, one can also mark pieces as a person's name, event dates and places, etc. etc., in such a way that the user doesn't need to think about markup codes, and Gramps can process it.
>
> Exactly.  We need to be able to mark information relating to people and events.
>
>>
>> In my view, this editor does not need to reside inside Gramps, but of course it helps if Gramps can display imported content in a proper way, and process its semantic markup.
>
> We can't really expect Gramps users to use an external tool. Giving them the option is fine, but we should also provide the functionality within Gramps.  This may mean extending the functionality of the existing editor, or writing a new one.
>
I’m catching up after a couple of days so maybe I’ve missed something.  Are we suggesting that Gramps invent a mechanism for the user to mark up basically any text document such that Gramps can capture and record the genealogical information that it contains?  Because this seems to me to be extraordinarily complex and, frankly, of little use.  

Take an obituary.  They can contain a wealth of facts and clues about a person and their family.  For example, a line like “The deceased’s older brother D.L. “Buddy” Hamilton and his wife Gladys have come home from their farm near Little Current, Sask, to attend the funeral.  Perhaps we didn’t previously know about the brother—let alone that he was married and living on the Praries on that date.  Maybe the “Buddy” name is an important clue in deciphering a cache of letters.  Etc.  

Gramps is already complicated-enough for most users.  To add in a markup system that allows the user to encode all--of even most--of this information is going to add substantial complexity.  How is this an advantage to the user?  The user is still going to have to know how to use Gramps to directly input information, right?  So the markup language is just an intermediate step between finding relevant information and recording it together with the source of said info.

I think the real objective should be to make it easier for users to record the source of the evidence that has led them to record something in Gramps.  I don’t have a solution—that’s a hard problem.  I don’t think a markup language is the right approach however.

Craig

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Re: Markup test

Peter Flynn
In reply to this post by ACProctor
On 25/12/2018 10:59, Tony Proctor wrote:
> I hope that's not too technical for this list.

No, but it's OT, so I'm replying privately.

P


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Re: Markup test

Peter Flynn
In reply to this post by Janusz S. Bień
On 25/12/2018 13:46, Janusz S. Bień wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 25 2018 at 13:36 GMT, Tony Proctor wrote:
>> I abandoned TEI because it is very complicated
>
> That definitely true.
>
>> and designed primarily for diplomatic transcription.
>
> I don't think it is true. If you insist on this statement, please
> provide some arguments.

Diplomatic transcription is one important usage but there are many others.

> I don't use TEI but I watched its development almost from its beginning
[...]
> Sorry for pressing the point, but I would like to make sure that the
> subscribers of this list are not misinformed about TEI.

I have also been involved with TEI since its early days. Yes, it's
complex (not really complicated) — but it has to be because it tries to
solve many problems in a single framework.

The advantage, however, is that it is *highly* modular, so you can
create a subset adapted to your work, ignore all the stuff you don't
need, and still be conformant to the overall framework so that other
users can just open your files and work on them.

P


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Re: Source-based data entry [Was: Startup person selection]

Peter Flynn
In reply to this post by Nick Hall
On 25/12/2018 22:42, Nick Hall wrote:
> On 25/12/2018 21:24, Tony Proctor wrote:
>> One last note about TEI that I forgot to mention. I appreciate that it
>> is a recognised standard, and so looks really appealing. I still stand
>> by the fact it's focused on presentational formatting and structure
>> rather than semantics of the text.

An interesting point. Most users would argue that it has hardly any
presentational formatting at all — it's all structure and semantics.
Virtually the only presentational element is <hi>for highlighting</hi>

>> However, if Gramps -- or any other
>> product -- utilised TEI for transcription and/or research narrative
>> (my mark-up had to cope with both) then you would only be using a
>> fraction of TEI's complexity.

Yes, and TEI is way too big for this job.

>> Implicitly, this means that any other
>> product trying import data from Gramps has an enormous burden imposed
>> on it: it has to be able to accept ALL of the TEI possibilities,
>> unless the Gramps's usage has defined a subset, in which case it's
>> effectively a proprietary mark-up and no longer TEI.

Not strictly true. You could define a very small subset that allowed
just those things that Gramps users want to mark up.

> I agree.  I don't find TEI a particularly appealing solution.

Me neither. I would suggest that a proper document analysis should be
done, of all the things current users want to identify, and adopt some
markup system that can implement them without involving the reinvention
of several wheels.

Iff what comes out of this processes uses names (like XML does) as
opposed to symbols (like MarkDown does) then perhaps some of the
recognised names from an existing markup system could be used, eg call
underlining "u" or a date "date" rather than going down blind alleys or
proprietary systems. This would let those users who need XML import and
export their material without adding excise for those users who do not.

P


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Re: Startup person selection

prculley
In reply to this post by Peter Flynn
I've just created a new addon for Gramps 5.0.x that will cause Gramps to startup where it was shut down.
It should appear under the 'Plugin lib' category as 'Restart where you were last working'.  You can install via the usual methods,
"Edit/Preferences/Check for updated addons now" button with the "What to check" set to "New and updated" and "Do not ask about previously notified addons" set to off.

Let us know if it has issues or could do more than it does now.

Paul C.

On Sat, Dec 22, 2018 at 4:00 PM Peter Flynn <[hidden email]> wrote:
Is it possible to configure Gramps so that it starts up in the same
place that it was shut down? That is, in the same pane with the same
person active as it was when I clicked Quit.

P


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Re: Startup person selection

Dave Scheipers
I just installed it on 5.0.1 win64 and it worked perfectly. No errors,

Whichever record I was last on in any of the areas of the database;
people, places, sources, etc, when I started a new session of gramps,
that was the record returned to even if it was not the active view on
startup.

On Thu, Dec 27, 2018 at 10:02 PM Sam Manzi <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Quick test gave the following error  will try to work out the steps later (@ work currently)
>
> 50906: ERROR: grampsapp.py: line 143: Unhandled exception
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "C:\Program Files (x86)\GrampsAIO32-5.0.1\gramps\gui\viewmanager.py", line 830, in quit
>     self.__delete_pages()
>   File "C:\Users\<snip>\Documents\gramps-test-profile\gramps\gramps50\plugins\RestoreHist\restorehist.py", line 67, in __delete_pages
>     out = {'filename': self.dbstate.db.full_name}
> AttributeError: 'DummyDb' object has no attribute 'full_name'
>
>
> On Fri, 28 Dec 2018 at 09:18, Paul Culley <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I've just created a new addon for Gramps 5.0.x that will cause Gramps to startup where it was shut down.
>> It should appear under the 'Plugin lib' category as 'Restart where you were last working'.  You can install via the usual methods,
>> "Edit/Preferences/Check for updated addons now" button with the "What to check" set to "New and updated" and "Do not ask about previously notified addons" set to off.
>>
>> Let us know if it has issues or could do more than it does now.
>>
>> Paul C.
>>
>> On Sat, Dec 22, 2018 at 4:00 PM Peter Flynn <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Is it possible to configure Gramps so that it starts up in the same
>>> place that it was shut down? That is, in the same pane with the same
>>> person active as it was when I clicked Quit.
>>>
>>> P
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Gramps-users mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users
>>> https://gramps-project.org
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Gramps-users mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users
>> https://gramps-project.org
>
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users
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Re: Source-based data entry [Was: Startup person selection]

enno
In reply to this post by Nick Hall
Hello Nick,

>
>>
>> In my view, this editor does not need to reside inside Gramps, but of
>> course it helps if Gramps can display imported content in a proper
>> way, and process its semantic markup.
> We can't really expect Gramps users to use an external tool. Giving
> them the option is fine, but we should also provide the functionality
> within Gramps.  This may mean extending the functionality of the
> existing editor, or writing a new one.

I understand, and IMO, it would be nice if we can use an existing HTML
engine for that, like Gecko, but I don't really know if that works well
enough to try.

Regards,

Enno




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Re: Source-based data entry [Was: Startup person selection]

Nick Hall
On 28/12/2018 21:03, Enno Borgsteede wrote:
> I understand, and IMO, it would be nice if we can use an existing HTML
> engine for that, like Gecko, but I don't really know if that works
> well enough to try.

If we went down the HTML route, then it would be better to store the
transcription in a media object and use external tools to view and edit it.

Anything within Gramps would likely to be simple, with more limited
functionality, and specific to genealogy.

Nick.




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Re: Source-based data entry [Was: Startup person selection]

Peter Flynn
In reply to this post by GRAMPS - User mailing list
On 24/12/2018 07:26, Janusz S. Bień wrote:
[...]
> BTW, an XML editor with the best support of TEI is oxygen:
> https://www.oxygenxml.com/
> It's a commercial one, but you can test the full version free for a
> month (unless this changed recently).

oXygen is excellent. Also working with TEI:

  • Emacs with psgml-mode (not the default nxml-mode)
  • XMLCopyEditor (https://sourceforge.net/projects/xml-copy-editor/)

See http://xml.silmaril.ie/software.html#free-editors

///Peter


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Re: Source-based data entry [Was: Startup person selection]

enno
In reply to this post by Nick Hall
Hello Nick,

Digging up an old thread ...

> On 28/12/2018 21:03, Enno Borgsteede wrote:
>> I understand, and IMO, it would be nice if we can use an existing
>> HTML engine for that, like Gecko, but I don't really know if that
>> works well enough to try.
>
> If we went down the HTML route, then it would be better to store the
> transcription in a media object and use external tools to view and
> edit it.
>
> Anything within Gramps would likely to be simple, with more limited
> functionality, and specific to genealogy.

Reason for asking is that many indexed sources that I find on the web
are displayed as tables, for which it would be very nice if I could
paste those into a note, and keep the formatting. When I paste these
now, I always end up reformatting them with tabs, knowing that they will
probably look awful in reports.

I know that on Linux, and probably also on Mac, one can use WebKit to
display HTML in a Window, and even edit it, and for me, it would make
life much easier, and bring Gramps to the same level as tools like
EverNote, which also allow basic formatting. The only problem I see here
is that there is no WebKit support for Windows, so we may need an
alternative.

Regards,

Enno




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Re: Source-based data entry [Was: Startup person selection]

Nick Hall
On 12/05/2019 15:40, Enno Borgsteede wrote:
> I know that on Linux, and probably also on Mac, one can use WebKit to
> display HTML in a Window, and even edit it, and for me, it would make
> life much easier, and bring Gramps to the same level as tools like
> EverNote, which also allow basic formatting. The only problem I see
> here is that there is no WebKit support for Windows, so we may need an
> alternative.

There is a Gtk port of WebKit, but it is only a renderer.

https://webkitgtk.org/

Gramps Note objects use a Gtk TextView widget for display and edit, but
their functionality is quite limited.

https://developer.gnome.org/gtk3/stable/GtkTextView.html

If anyone can suggest a suitable open source Gtk widget, or perhaps
write one, then I would be happy to investigate further.

Regards,


Nick.




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Re: Source-based data entry [Was: Startup person selection]

enno
Hello Nick,

> On 12/05/2019 15:40, Enno Borgsteede wrote:
>> I know that on Linux, and probably also on Mac, one can use WebKit to
>> display HTML in a Window, and even edit it, and for me, it would make
>> life much easier, and bring Gramps to the same level as tools like
>> EverNote, which also allow basic formatting. The only problem I see
>> here is that there is no WebKit support for Windows, so we may need
>> an alternative.
>
> There is a Gtk port of WebKit, but it is only a renderer.
>
> https://webkitgtk.org/

Not really. The WebView has an editable property, and if you set that to
True, you can actually edit the HTML, in a WYSIWYG way. There's an
example on

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2009/07/how-to-build-a-desktop-wysiwyg-editor-with-webkit-and-html-5/

The article is almost 10 years old, but it still works, and the article
suggests that this editable property is part of the HTML 5
specification, meaning that other renderers should support it too.

On Linux, I see that WebKit relies on Java, and I bet it does on Mac
too, where WebKit is Safari's renderer. I see no downloadable version
for Windows though, which is why Gecko (by Mozilla) might be an
alternative. Problem with the latter is that I see no clear way to embed
a Gecko renderer in GTK.

Regards,

Enno




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Re: Source-based data entry [Was: Startup person selection]

StoltHD
Can't you use one of the already great markdown or rtf editors thats out there as open source?

There must be multiple advanced Markdown Editors for Python?

something like this?
https://python-markdown.github.io
https://pypi.org/project/Markdown/#files

https://github.com/jebedaia360/PyGtkFX
https://pypi.org/project/formiko/


I am not a developer so i do not know of all the dependencies, so its just a tips and a question...

Reason is that I am looking for a new note taking software that can "replace" Microsoft OneNote... and software as TiddlyWiki, Joplin, and more all support some markdown, and in Joplin that have its own web clipper, the result of the web clip is okay, depending on the website... (some archives do not work well...



tir. 14. mai 2019 kl. 22:33 skrev Enno Borgsteede <[hidden email]>:
Hello Nick,

> On 12/05/2019 15:40, Enno Borgsteede wrote:
>> I know that on Linux, and probably also on Mac, one can use WebKit to
>> display HTML in a Window, and even edit it, and for me, it would make
>> life much easier, and bring Gramps to the same level as tools like
>> EverNote, which also allow basic formatting. The only problem I see
>> here is that there is no WebKit support for Windows, so we may need
>> an alternative.
>
> There is a Gtk port of WebKit, but it is only a renderer.
>
> https://webkitgtk.org/

Not really. The WebView has an editable property, and if you set that to
True, you can actually edit the HTML, in a WYSIWYG way. There's an
example on

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2009/07/how-to-build-a-desktop-wysiwyg-editor-with-webkit-and-html-5/

The article is almost 10 years old, but it still works, and the article
suggests that this editable property is part of the HTML 5
specification, meaning that other renderers should support it too.

On Linux, I see that WebKit relies on Java, and I bet it does on Mac
too, where WebKit is Safari's renderer. I see no downloadable version
for Windows though, which is why Gecko (by Mozilla) might be an
alternative. Problem with the latter is that I see no clear way to embed
a Gecko renderer in GTK.

Regards,

Enno




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Re: Source-based data entry [Was: Startup person selection]

Nick Hall
In reply to this post by enno
On 14/05/2019 21:32, Enno Borgsteede wrote:
> The WebView has an editable property, and if you set that to True, you
> can actually edit the HTML, in a WYSIWYG way.

Interesting.  I just tried it with Gtk3 and it works well.

It was easy to write an editor with basic formatting.   I don't know how
to add tables and lists yet though.

Another problem is that it is a very large dependency - about 80M I think.

Nick.




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Re: Source-based data entry [Was: Startup person selection]

enno
Hello Nick,

> On 14/05/2019 21:32, Enno Borgsteede wrote:
>> The WebView has an editable property, and if you set that to True,
>> you can actually edit the HTML, in a WYSIWYG way.
>
> Interesting.  I just tried it with Gtk3 and it works well.
>
> It was easy to write an editor with basic formatting.   I don't know
> how to add tables and lists yet though.
>
> Another problem is that it is a very large dependency - about 80M I
> think.

Yes indeed. It's something that we probably don't see on Linux and Mac,
where packages are handled by the OS, but on Windows, it may be a
problem, because we'd need to put it in the AIO, assuming that we can
find a decent build for that. This would be true for other renderers
too, because Chromium and Gecko don't come installed with Windows either.

Another thing is, that embedding a full HTML renderer with Gramps allows
all sorts of javascript things to run in it too, and I suspect that that
can be quite dangerous, because we can't update WebKit as fast as
external browsers are updated by their makers. What I mean is that if
hyperlinks are processed by Chrome, or Firefox, or Safari, our users can
rely on those browsers getting the updates they need, as fast as possible.

This is why I like the idea posted by Jaran, and plan to test the Joplin
web clipper ASAP.

Regards,

Enno




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Re: Source-based data entry [Was: Startup person selection]

enno
In reply to this post by StoltHD
Hello Jaran,

> Can't you use one of the already great markdown or rtf editors thats
> out there as open source?
>
> There must be multiple advanced Markdown Editors for Python?
>
> something like this?
> https://python-markdown.github.io
> https://pypi.org/project/Markdown/#files
>
> https://github.com/jebedaia360/PyGtkFX
> https://pypi.org/project/formiko/
>
> I am not a developer so i do not know of all the dependencies, so its
> just a tips and a question...
I have not checked all of them, and noticed that some depend on WebKit,
but I like the idea, because with Markdown we are probably much safer
than running a full browser inside Gramps, which might do nasty things
with javascript or even flash. Most things that I like to have, like
lists and tables, are supported by Markdown, which should be easy to
learn, and allows us to avoid some of the nasty parts of pure html.
>
> Reason is that I am looking for a new note taking software that can
> "replace" Microsoft OneNote... and software as TiddlyWiki, Joplin, and
> more all support some markdown, and in Joplin that have its own web
> clipper, the result of the web clip is okay, depending on the
> website... (some archives do not work well...

I tried the Joplin web clipper on a few articles, for which it worked
quite well. It works on FamilySearch too, but not on the Dutch
WieWasWie. Anyway, because it's open, and has an SQLite datebase,
importing notes into Gramps should be easy.

The best would be if users have a choice, so that they can work with
Markdown in Gramps, and import from Joplin if they want to. And the
nicest would be if the Markdown editor can do some WYSIWYG things too.

Thanks for mentioning this.

Cheers,

Enno




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