Summary of the call name problem

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Summary of the call name problem

Don Allingham
I thought I would summarize the call name situation as I currently
understand it. We've had a lot of messages, and its getting kind of hard
to keep track of everything. Part of the problem is that we have had
several solutions posted before a full definition of the problem has
been identified. This message is not an attempt to solve the problem or
to propose a solution, just to define the situation.

An important issue to keep in mind is that a solution needs to be
generic. It cannot solve only one problem for only few areas of the
world. A solution also needs to be simple enough for the typical GRAMPS
user to understand, and without putting an undo burden on the average
user. Before proposing a solution, ask yourself, "Would this confuse
Aunt Martha?"

Call names seem to mean different things in different parts of the
world. Some definitions are below.

1) The call name follows specific legal rules, where the name should
    be underlined in documents, and the call name must be a one of the
    names in the given name. So, applying this to my name of "Donald
    Norman", the call name would be "Donald". This is the example given
    by Joachim, and applies to Germany and several other countries.

2) The call name can be a subset of a person's name, as pointed out by
    Richard Bos. I'm not sure what the legal status of this is, but as
    Richard pointed out, his name is "Richardus" but the call name is
    "Richard". I'm not sure if underlining is required. However, I'm
    pretty sure that "Richard" cannot be considered to be a nickname.

3) The call name is different from a person's legal given name. For
    example, someone with the legal name of "Lawrence" will typically
    have the call name of "Larry", which is not a subset of any name.
    Again, this would not be viewed as a nickname.

Some areas of the world need the call name underlined; other areas of
the world do not have this requirement.

Now, some will say that #2 and #3 are not valid call names, Some will
say at only #3 is not a valid call name. Some will say that all are
valid call names. And it may depend on where you live as to what you
consider to be a valid call name.

And therein lies the problem.

Don


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Re: Summary of the call name problem

Felix Rönnebeck

> An important issue to keep in mind is that a solution needs to be
> generic. It cannot solve only one problem for only few areas of the
> world. A solution also needs to be simple enough for the typical GRAMPS
> user to understand, and without putting an undo burden on the average
> user. Before proposing a solution, ask yourself, "Would this confuse
> Aunt Martha?"
>
> Call names seem to mean different things in different parts of the
> world. Some definitions are below.
>
> 1) The call name follows specific legal rules, where the name should
> be underlined in documents, and the call name must be a one of the
> names in the given name. So, applying this to my name of "Donald
> Norman", the call name would be "Donald". This is the example given
> by Joachim, and applies to Germany and several other countries.
>
> 2) The call name can be a subset of a person's name, as pointed out by
> Richard Bos. I'm not sure what the legal status of this is, but as
> Richard pointed out, his name is "Richardus" but the call name is
> "Richard". I'm not sure if underlining is required. However, I'm
> pretty sure that "Richard" cannot be considered to be a nickname.
>
> 3) The call name is different from a person's legal given name. For
> example, someone with the legal name of "Lawrence" will typically
> have the call name of "Larry", which is not a subset of any name.
> Again, this would not be viewed as a nickname.
>
> Some areas of the world need the call name underlined; other areas of
> the world do not have this requirement.
>
> Now, some will say that #2 and #3 are not valid call names, Some will
> say at only #3 is not a valid call name. Some will say that all are
> valid call names. And it may depend on where you live as to what you
> consider to be a valid call name.
>
> And therein lies the problem.
>
> Don

Maybe there is an approximation if you can consider, that #1 can easily
happen in combination with #2 or #3. The underlined name in german
documents is the call name from the perspective of the document. But
this Person still can have a different call name as in #2 or #3. If e.g.
the name "Harald" ist the call name in the document, the person still
can be called "Harry" in daily life. Or to push it to the extreme: I
know a person who didn't like her call name as it was in the document,
so she decided to us her middle name as call name. Even some of her
close friends didn't know this. So what would you consider to be the
call name? The one in the document or the one she uses?

just my 2€ct

/Felix


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Re: Summary of the call name problem

Joachim Breitner
In reply to this post by Don Allingham
Hi,

thanks for the summery.

Please note that the term "callname" is just what I translated when
refering to the German term "Rufname". Maybe there is a better
definition

Am Montag, den 14.11.2005, 14:13 -0700 schrieb Don Allingham:
> 1) The call name follows specific legal rules, where the name should
>     be underlined in documents, and the call name must be a one of the
>     names in the given name. So, applying this to my name of "Donald
>     Norman", the call name would be "Donald". This is the example given
>     by Joachim, and applies to Germany and several other countries.
Although this is probably contra-productive to my own goals:
After a bit research it turns out that the Rufname as a legal concept
(and thus the requirement to mark such a name on legal papers) was
abandonned in Germany in 1968. But of course, for genealogical software,
even formerly valid law has to be taken into account.

And then there is the C. A. Starke publisher, which publishes important
genealogical books, that requires the underlining of the Rufname.


Concering your aunt: A solution hidden away in the context menu of the
name entry field should not harm her, should it?

Greetings,
Joachim
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Re: Summary of the call name problem

Joachim Breitner
Hi,

just a quick trivia to throw in:

googling[1] for "rufname unterstreichen filetype:pdf" (callname
underline) will result in 595 file, mostly governmental forms, that
require the underlining of the callname.

Joachim

http://www.google.de/search?q=rufname+unterstreichen+filetype%3Apdf
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Re: Summary of the call name problem

Eero Tamminen
In reply to this post by Don Allingham
Hi,

On Monday 14 November 2005 23:13, Don Allingham wrote:

> I thought I would summarize the call name situation as I currently
> understand it. We've had a lot of messages, and its getting kind of hard
> to keep track of everything. Part of the problem is that we have had
> several solutions posted before a full definition of the problem has
> been identified. This message is not an attempt to solve the problem or
> to propose a solution, just to define the situation.
>
> An important issue to keep in mind is that a solution needs to be
> generic. It cannot solve only one problem for only few areas of the
> world. A solution also needs to be simple enough for the typical GRAMPS
> user to understand, and without putting an undo burden on the average
> user. Before proposing a solution, ask yourself, "Would this confuse
> Aunt Martha?"
>
> Call names seem to mean different things in different parts of the
> world. Some definitions are below.
>
> 1) The call name follows specific legal rules, where the name should
>     be underlined in documents, and the call name must be a one of the
>     names in the given name. So, applying this to my name of "Donald
>     Norman", the call name would be "Donald". This is the example given
>     by Joachim, and applies to Germany and several other countries.
>
> 2) The call name can be a subset of a person's name, as pointed out by
>     Richard Bos. I'm not sure what the legal status of this is, but as
>     Richard pointed out, his name is "Richardus" but the call name is
>     "Richard". I'm not sure if underlining is required. However, I'm
>     pretty sure that "Richard" cannot be considered to be a nickname.
>
> 3) The call name is different from a person's legal given name. For
>     example, someone with the legal name of "Lawrence" will typically
>     have the call name of "Larry", which is not a subset of any name.
>     Again, this would not be viewed as a nickname.

About the last two, I didn't see yet any argument why they couldn't be
considered nick names, or I missed it.  Could somebody tell that again?

Also, I would be interested about whether either of them was required in
legal documents, and in which countries?


> Some areas of the world need the call name underlined; other areas of
> the world do not have this requirement.

How these output requirements would tie to different types of call names?


> Now, some will say that #2 and #3 are not valid call names, Some will
> say at only #3 is not a valid call name. Some will say that all are
> valid call names. And it may depend on where you live as to what you
> consider to be a valid call name.
>
> And therein lies the problem.

I mean, the problem could be either that one needs to data-wise separate
callname from other names, or just that there would be need to be visually
differentiate one/some of the already existing names (other than nickname).

A generic mechanism for latter could be that one could have markup on the
names, such as '_name_' or '*name*'...  These would need to be stripped
/converted to a style when names are shown or sorted.  However, that sounds
quite a lot of effort + hackish.

Former sounds to me easier, but the UI part on that would be harder thing
(the aunt Martha factor...).  Composing the forenames from separate names
wouldn't fit into current person editor etc.


        - Eero


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Re: Summary of the call name problem

Richard Bos
Op maandag 14 november 2005 23:40, schreef Eero Tamminen:
> About the last two, I didn't see yet any argument why they couldn't be
> considered nick names, or I missed it.  Could somebody tell that again?

Because Richard is my _rufname_ (I won't use the Dutch word for it ;)  it is
definately not my nickname (at least not the way I interpret nickname).  I
have gramps not around at the moment: Richard is my given name and Richardus
is my birth name (if those categories are available in gramps).

> Also, I would be interested about whether either of them was required in
> legal documents, and in which countries?

For official papers I have to use my birthnames, for other less official ones
I can use my rufname (callname)/given name.

--
Richard Bos
Without a home the journey is endless


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Re: Summary of the call name problem

Udo Vogel
In reply to this post by Don Allingham
May I add a hint to a specification of a GEDCOM enhancement agred upon
by the Authors of genealogy programs Ages!, DYNAS-TREE, GES-2000,
GF-Ahnen, PC-Ahnen, GEDCOM 2 Map and the Society For Computer Genealogy.
They  suggest together following proposal of an extension of the GEDCOM
<http://wiki-en.genealogy.net/wiki/GEDCOM> 5.5 standard called "Gedcom
5.5EL":

http://wiki-en.genealogy.net/wiki/Gedcom_5.5EL
(refer to 'Names of a Person').

Udo


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Re: Summary of the call name problem

Joachim Breitner
Hi,

thanks for the pointer. It seems to me that the "select and mark"
approach would be best if we want to be able to export to that format
later, at least better than the "repeat name in the Nickname field"
approach.

Greetings,
Joachim

Am Dienstag, den 15.11.2005, 07:07 +0100 schrieb Udo Vogel:

> May I add a hint to a specification of a GEDCOM enhancement agred upon
> by the Authors of genealogy programs Ages!, DYNAS-TREE, GES-2000,
> GF-Ahnen, PC-Ahnen, GEDCOM 2 Map and the Society For Computer Genealogy.
> They  suggest together following proposal of an extension of the GEDCOM
> <http://wiki-en.genealogy.net/wiki/GEDCOM> 5.5 standard called "Gedcom
> 5.5EL":
>
> http://wiki-en.genealogy.net/wiki/Gedcom_5.5EL
> (refer to 'Names of a Person').
>
> Udo
>
>
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Re: Summary of the call name problem

Don Allingham
Unfortunately, the "select and mark" approach does not address all three
cases. While it may work for some areas of Europe (#1 and possibly #2),
it does not address the general case.

Don

Joachim Breitner wrote:

> Hi,
>
> thanks for the pointer. It seems to me that the "select and mark"
> approach would be best if we want to be able to export to that format
> later, at least better than the "repeat name in the Nickname field"
> approach.
>
> Greetings,
> Joachim
>
> Am Dienstag, den 15.11.2005, 07:07 +0100 schrieb Udo Vogel:
>
>>May I add a hint to a specification of a GEDCOM enhancement agred upon
>>by the Authors of genealogy programs Ages!, DYNAS-TREE, GES-2000,
>>GF-Ahnen, PC-Ahnen, GEDCOM 2 Map and the Society For Computer Genealogy.
>>They  suggest together following proposal of an extension of the GEDCOM
>><http://wiki-en.genealogy.net/wiki/GEDCOM> 5.5 standard called "Gedcom
>>5.5EL":
>>
>>http://wiki-en.genealogy.net/wiki/Gedcom_5.5EL
>>(refer to 'Names of a Person').
>>
>>Udo
>>
>>
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Re: Summary of the call name problem

Eric Newman
As I see it, you want to have the support for either marking a portion
of the given name as a callname, or supplying an additional callname
and marking the portion of the given name that it should replace. For
example, Richardus Bos would not want "Richard Richardus Bos" to
appear on any report. He would want either "Richard Bos" or "Richardus
Bos," depending on the report. And Lawrence Doe would not want
"Lawrence Larry Doe" on a report, but either "Lawrence Doe," or "Larry
Doe."

Looking at it this way, a callname is an additional name that either
IS one of the given names, or REPLACES one of the given names. This
could be accomplished with 2 editable dropdown lists:

Call Name: __________|v|  Replaces Given Name: __________|v|  [help]

(the "|v|" is the dropdown box arrow)

Both the Call Name field and the Replace field are editable dropdown
lists populated with whitespace delimited substrings of the given
name. Initially, the Replace field would be greyed out (inactive).

First, you would either select the Call Name from the dropdown or
enter in the Call Name. If the call name was entered in and not found
as a whitespace delimited substring (whole word) in the Given Name
field, the Replace field would become active. At that point, you could
either select from the dropdown list or type in a substring of the
Given Name field.

The help button would explain all this, and explain call names in
general. So, returning to Don's examples:

1) Donald Allingham, callname Donald. Select "Donald" in the Call Name
dropdown. Done.
2) Richardus Bos, callname Richard. Type "Richard" in the Call Name
box. Select "Richardus" in the Replace dropdown.
3) Lawrence Doe, callname Larry, Type "Larry" in the Call Name box.
Select "Lawrence" in the Replace dropdown.

Are there cases this doesn't cover? Is it an inadequate or confusing
solution? Reports could use the given name and call name fields along
with the call name replace string to do whatever they wanted with
names.

-Eric

On 11/15/05, Don Allingham <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Unfortunately, the "select and mark" approach does not address all three
> cases. While it may work for some areas of Europe (#1 and possibly #2),
> it does not address the general case.
>
> Don
>
> Joachim Breitner wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > thanks for the pointer. It seems to me that the "select and mark"
> > approach would be best if we want to be able to export to that format
> > later, at least better than the "repeat name in the Nickname field"
> > approach.
> >
> > Greetings,
> > Joachim
> >
> > Am Dienstag, den 15.11.2005, 07:07 +0100 schrieb Udo Vogel:
> >
> >>May I add a hint to a specification of a GEDCOM enhancement agred upon
> >>by the Authors of genealogy programs Ages!, DYNAS-TREE, GES-2000,
> >>GF-Ahnen, PC-Ahnen, GEDCOM 2 Map and the Society For Computer Genealogy.
> >>They  suggest together following proposal of an extension of the GEDCOM
> >><http://wiki-en.genealogy.net/wiki/GEDCOM> 5.5 standard called "Gedcom
> >>5.5EL":
> >>
> >>http://wiki-en.genealogy.net/wiki/Gedcom_5.5EL
> >>(refer to 'Names of a Person').
> >>
> >>Udo
> >>
> >>
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Re: Summary of the call name problem

Joachim Breitner
In reply to this post by Don Allingham
Hi,

Am Dienstag, den 15.11.2005, 10:32 -0700 schrieb Don Allingham:
> Unfortunately, the "select and mark" approach does not address all three
> cases. While it may work for some areas of Europe (#1 and possibly #2),
> it does not address the general case.

That is right, but at least it solves #1 and #2 :-) Does is do that in
an agreeable way?

To me, case #3 is what I understand as a Nickname, an unofficial name
(usually) derived from one of the given Names. At least, this is how I
currently use the nickname field. I have a lot of "Heinrich"s in my
ancestory, and most of them are calles "Heiner" by everyone, so Heinrich
is the given name and Heiner goes to the Nickname field.

One might argue if it is ok for this usage to use the nickname field,
but as case #3 differes quite a bit from #1 and #2, I'd suggest to solve
#1 and #2 in a way most suitable for it, and treat #3 in some other,
again more suitable way.

Greetings,
Joachim

BTW: I have often seen the #3 name being written as in
 Lawrence "Larry" Smith
just like
 Lawrence "Red Neck" Smith
(which unarguably is a real and proper nickname :-))
That does support the theory that #3 is sufficient different from #1 and
#2 to be treated more like a nickname than a Rufname.

> Joachim Breitner wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > thanks for the pointer. It seems to me that the "select and mark"
> > approach would be best if we want to be able to export to that format
> > later, at least better than the "repeat name in the Nickname field"
> > approach.
> >
> > Greetings,
> > Joachim
> >
> > Am Dienstag, den 15.11.2005, 07:07 +0100 schrieb Udo Vogel:
> >
> >>May I add a hint to a specification of a GEDCOM enhancement agred upon
> >>by the Authors of genealogy programs Ages!, DYNAS-TREE, GES-2000,
> >>GF-Ahnen, PC-Ahnen, GEDCOM 2 Map and the Society For Computer Genealogy.
> >>They  suggest together following proposal of an extension of the GEDCOM
> >><http://wiki-en.genealogy.net/wiki/GEDCOM> 5.5 standard called "Gedcom
> >>5.5EL":
> >>
> >>http://wiki-en.genealogy.net/wiki/Gedcom_5.5EL
> >>(refer to 'Names of a Person').
> >>
> >>Udo
> >>
> >>
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>
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Re: Summary of the call name problem

Johan Vromans
In reply to this post by Eric Newman
Eric Newman <[hidden email]> writes:

Looks good, but I have a question.

> 1) Donald Allingham, callname Donald. Select "Donald" in the Call Name
> dropdown. Done.

Assumed representation: Donald Allingham.

> 2) Richardus Bos, callname Richard. Type "Richard" in the Call Name
> box. Select "Richardus" in the Replace dropdown.

Assumed representation: Richardus (Richard) Bos.

> 3) Lawrence Doe, callname Larry, Type "Larry" in the Call Name box.
> Select "Lawrence" in the Replace dropdown.

Assumed representation: Lawrence (Larry) Doe.

Similar: Johannes Josephus Maria (Johan) Vromans.
Similar: Willem Alexander (Alex) van Buuren.

So, in general, I think the call name is appended if it is not
identical to the first (or only) given name.

Which raises the question: what is the function of specifying the
replacement name? It is even possible for a call name to _not_ match
any given names.

-- Johan


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Re: Re: Summary of the call name problem

Eero Tamminen
Hi,

On Tuesday 15 November 2005 23:51, Johan Vromans wrote:
> Looks good, but I have a question.
>
> > 1) Donald Allingham, callname Donald. Select "Donald" in the Call Name
> > dropdown. Done.
>
> Assumed representation: Donald Allingham.

No, the callname should be highlighted.

For example with Eero Tapio Tamminen, callname Eero, the
representation would be "_Eero_ Tapio Tamminen".


> > 2) Richardus Bos, callname Richard. Type "Richard" in the Call Name
> > box. Select "Richardus" in the Replace dropdown.
>
> Assumed representation: Richardus (Richard) Bos.

If I understood the alternative #2 correctly, you're not supposed to
see both Richardus & Richard at the same time.   Richard, is that
correct?

However, I'm not sure why it then cannot be an alternate name.  Richard?
In #1 the point is that the callname is one of the given names.


> > 3) Lawrence Doe, callname Larry, Type "Larry" in the Call Name box.
> > Select "Lawrence" in the Replace dropdown.
>
> Assumed representation: Lawrence (Larry) Doe.

Nobody explained to me why option #3 couldn't be a nickname or
alternate name and what's its status in official/legal papers.  Anybody?


        - Eero

> Similar: Johannes Josephus Maria (Johan) Vromans.
> Similar: Willem Alexander (Alex) van Buuren.
>
> So, in general, I think the call name is appended if it is not
> identical to the first (or only) given name.
>
> Which raises the question: what is the function of specifying the
> replacement name? It is even possible for a call name to _not_ match
> any given names.
>
> -- Johan
>
>
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