This is the captain of your ship...

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This is the captain of your ship...

Martnal
I've  read all I can find in the forum about vessels at sea.  It all seems to
relate to passengers.  I have a Ship's Master, who sailed the Seven Seas
between 1850 and 1885.  I am quite happy with the concept of a ship being a
place, whether in dock or at sea, but I'd be interested to read thoughts on
whether it is a workplace or a residence.  The captain might even be working
while in his quarters, so I can't split the ship that way.  

(I must be learning something as my "mean time between questions" is
increasing!)

Martin



-----

Martin, SW London

I am using GrampsAIO64-4.2.5-1 on Windows 10.

I am researching surnames Loughborough, (London, Hull and Hartlepool), Watson, (Jarrow and Hartlepool), Ballard and Glassop (E. London), Mowbray, Pounder and Bulmer, (all Hartlepool), Leggett (Middlesborough and elsewhere).
--
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Martin, SW London

My Gedmatch DNA Kit# is H062246

I am using GrampsAIO64-4.2.6-1 on Windows 10.

Names: Loughborough and Loughbrough, (London, Hull, Pirton and Hartlepool), Watson, (Bedlington, Jarrow & H'pool), Ballard & Glassop (E. London),  Leggett (Corton, Scarborough, Hartlepool, & Barnington, Yorks.)  Young & Wilson, (Hartlepool).  I use GRAMPS 4.2.6 software.
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Re: This is the captain of your ship...

Brad Rogers
On Tue, 28 Nov 2017 09:55:18 -0700 (MST)
Martnal <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello Martnal,

>between 1850 and 1885.  I am quite happy with the concept of a ship
>being a place, whether in dock or at sea, but I'd be interested to read
>thoughts on whether it is a workplace or a residence.

The answer, more often than not is;  "It depends"

For a Ships Master (or any of the crew, for that matter), I'd lean
towards work place as I feel that overshadows their living aboard for
the duration of the journey.

However, even for passengers, I don't treat the ship as a residence, but
have created specific events (Arrival & Departure) to indicate when and
from/to where they were travelling.  Also, if it can be shown that a
particular journey on a vessel was undertaken as part of an Immigration
or Emigration event, I'll add the the vessel to the migration event,
along with port of departure/arrival.

Of course, that's just how *I* do it.   :-)

--
 Regards  _
         / )           "The blindingly obvious is
        / _)rad        never immediately apparent"
It's only bits of plastic, lines projected on the wall
Keep It Clean - The Vibrators

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Re: This is the captain of your ship...

John W. Kitz-3
Martnal, Brad, (and others),

On 2017-11-28 18:46, Brad Rogers wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Nov 2017 09:55:18 -0700 (MST)
> Martnal <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hello Martnal,
>
>> between 1850 and 1885.  I am quite happy with the concept of a ship
>> being a place, whether in dock or at sea, but I'd be interested to
>> read
>> thoughts on whether it is a workplace or a residence.

My take it can be both, provided a vessel is out at sea.

To date I've come across one case in which a passenger aboard a vessel
became ill and shortly thereafter died.

This sounds a bit like an episode of Star Trek, but the events that lead
up to, including the individuals death, were recorded in the captain's
log and an excerpt was made and signed by a number of the ship's most
senior crew members including the captain.

After the vessel had docked in it's port of destination the excerpt was
legalized, or notarized if you will, by the port authority and served to
create a death certificate in the Civil Status Registry of the
municipality in which the deceased individual resided prior to embarking
on his, quite literary, final journey.

Since it is my understanding from the excerpt of the log's entry the
vessel was out at sea somewhere near a group of islands that belong to
the United Kingdom I used those islands as the place where the death
occurred and included additional information pertaining to the vessel
and the voyage in the description of the event, which on the CIR results
in:

Death         aboard a sailingship named ¨de Hoop¨, at the time enroute
               from Suriname to Amsterdam, The Netherlands, 1845-02-15
               in Scilly Isles, Cornwall, England, United Kingdom.

In all other events that involved a vessel, or any other mode of
transportation, that had not yet departed or arrived thus far I've
interpreted those events (mostly departures and arrivals) as having
taken place in the (geographic) location of the (intended) departure or
arrival of the mode of transport.

> The answer, more often than not is;  "It depends"
>
> For a Ships Master (or any of the crew, for that matter), I'd lean
> towards work place as I feel that overshadows their living aboard for
> the duration of the journey.
>
> However, even for passengers, I don't treat the ship as a residence,
> but
> have created specific events (Arrival & Departure) to indicate when and
> from/to where they were travelling.  Also, if it can be shown that a
> particular journey on a vessel was undertaken as part of an Immigration
> or Emigration event, I'll add the the vessel to the migration event,
> along with port of departure/arrival.
>
> Of course, that's just how *I* do it.   :-)

Of course that's how I prefer to do it do date.

I hope this helps, regards, Jk.

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Re: This is the captain of your ship...

Dave Scheipers
In reply to this post by Martnal
Hi Martin

I would have an event Occupation from... to... Ship name as you
suggest. Then I would have a series of Departure and Arrival events
for the ports of call. I would put the name of ship in the description
field so there would be no confusion. The challenge you will probably
have is finding a continuous progression of ports of call and you may
have gaps. An alternative would be to have two occupation events, one
for the start, assuming command and a last date. This method would
have the ports of call bracketed by these dates.

I would not have the residence as the ship. IMO, residence would imply
a long term passenger like you sometimes hear about people living
aboard a cruise ship. If you have the person as Master of the ship, I
think everyone will understand that he lived aboard ship. But did he
maintain residences in various ports where he may have had extended
stays? Research there may prove 'interesting'. I had a great uncle
that was a merchant seaman. My grandmother received a picture of him
from Australia with a woman who was not his wife. Have not found the
record that would show she was more than a close friend.

In addition to Port of Arrival/Departure, I also created Ocean Cruise
as an event. I've found records of my g-grandparents taking cruises in
the 1930's where the port of departure and arrival on the manifest are
the same. Where they may have made port is unknown.

Dave

On Tue, Nov 28, 2017 at 11:55 AM, Martnal <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I've  read all I can find in the forum about vessels at sea.  It all seems to
> relate to passengers.  I have a Ship's Master, who sailed the Seven Seas
> between 1850 and 1885.  I am quite happy with the concept of a ship being a
> place, whether in dock or at sea, but I'd be interested to read thoughts on
> whether it is a workplace or a residence.  The captain might even be working
> while in his quarters, so I can't split the ship that way.
>
> (I must be learning something as my "mean time between questions" is
> increasing!)
>
> Martin
>
>
>
> -----
>
> Martin, SW London
>
> I am using GrampsAIO64-4.2.5-1 on Windows 10.
>
> I am researching surnames Loughborough, (London, Hull and Hartlepool), Watson, (Jarrow and Hartlepool), Ballard and Glassop (E. London), Mowbray, Pounder and Bulmer, (all Hartlepool), Leggett (Middlesborough and elsewhere).
> --
> Sent from: http://gramps.1791082.n4.nabble.com/GRAMPS-User-f1807095.html
>
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> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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Re: This is the captain of your ship...

John W. Kitz-3
In reply to this post by Martnal
Dave,

> I've found records of my g-grandparents taking cruises in
> the 1930's where the port of departure and arrival on the manifest are
> the same. Where they may have made port is unknown.

You don't provide any detail, moreover this is off topic for this list,
but some time ago I've have made some preliminary comparisons of ship's
manifests, dating from the late 1930's through WW II, which I obtained
from FS to comparable material I obtained from a national archive that
suggest one may encounter differences in manifests concerning
destinations as well as the number of voyages of at least those merchant
vessels whose manifests I looked at.

I obviously don't know whether this provides any explanation for your
own findings, but depending on the specifics of the information you're
eluding to it may be interesting to look at in more detail.

Regards, Jk.

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Re: This is the captain of your ship...

adrian.davey
In reply to this post by John W. Kitz-3
While I agree that "departure" and "arrival" are sometimes the simplest
concepts for dealing with maritime movement [though I'm not buying into
the workplace/residence aspect!], there are other complexities that
don't fit that model.

For example, the British Admiralty must have had an agreement with the
census authorities for administration of the national census on their
ships, with the result that the UK national census, otherwise on a
standard national date, was administeredfor serving members of the Royal
Navy on different dates at sea [presumably to suit each commander's
operational requirements]. Thus I have a then Portsmouth-based
great-grandfather in the 1881 census as a gunner on HMS "Rocket"
somewhere off Skidegate, Princess Charlotte Is, British Columbia. It is
sobering to remember there were no Suez or Panama canals then! For that
example, I used "HMS Rocket off Skidegate" as the "place". I am someone
who never regards a place as being a precise point so much as a polygon
of ill-defined shape, size, orientation and centroid. Among other
things, I have a background in surveying and spatial technology, so I
understand the complexities of precision and accuracy, and very many
genealogical place references fail on both counts, before you even begin
to untangle inconsistent usages, ambiguities and changes over time! For
this reason I have no particular interest in using the "geography"
functions in gramps.

That same GGF did much later suffer a life event "at sea", by dying of a
stroke several days out of Capetown en-route to London, and was buried
at sea. On that occasion, even though you can calculate the approx
lat/long of about 3 days steaming from CT, it is definitely not helpful
supposing it is a "point" other than to name the ship and the route, in
my case as part of the description against a custom [generic] place "at
sea". I have plenty of other examples where the available historical
record is actually silent as to where the on-board death took place,
other than to say something like "en route between Sydney and Hobart",
so again they get as much as the evidence provides, in the description,
against the same place "at sea".

cheers, Adrian
...

thus far I've interpreted those events (mostly departures and arrivals)
as having taken place in the (geographic) location of the (intended)
departure or arrival of the mode of transport

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Re: This is the captain of your ship...

Brad Rogers
In reply to this post by Brad Rogers
On Wed, 29 Nov 2017 09:24:41 +0000
paul womack <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello paul,

(putting back on the list, where it should be)

>If the migration event already has the port as its "Place" field,

I never said I enter the port as the place.

>how do you add a vessel to the event? An event can only have 1 place.

What I do is to enclose the vessel by the relevant port on a specific
date.

--
 Regards  _
         / )           "The blindingly obvious is
        / _)rad        never immediately apparent"
What the hell has this place done for me?
Selfish Rubbish - Public Image Ltd

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Re: This is the captain of your ship...

Brad Rogers
In reply to this post by adrian.davey
On Wed, 29 Nov 2017 12:01:44 +1100
Adrian Davey <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello Adrian,

>For example, the British Admiralty must have had an agreement with the
>census authorities for administration of the national census on their

Not before, IIRC, 1881.  Prior to that, persons at sea were simply not
enumerated.  It should be noted that the same applies to merchant seamen.

I'm not sure whether _passengers_ en-voyage were/are enumerated.

--
 Regards  _
         / )           "The blindingly obvious is
        / _)rad        never immediately apparent"
I'm not here for your entertainment
U & Ur Hand - P!nk

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Re: This is the captain of your ship...

Martnal
Thank you all.  More questions yet to consider!  

I have one instance (1881) where he (Captain James Laird of Aberdeen) is
listed on his ship and also in local port accommodation at the same time.  I
am still trying to make decisions based on the other suggestions and my own
needs.

If I record the ship as a place, I must decide how to record such things as
Build Date, Build Location, Vessel weight etc.

(Off topic, two of his ships sank soon after passing them onto other
captains...!)

Martin



-----

Martin, SW London

I am using GrampsAIO64-4.2.5-1 on Windows 10.

I am researching surnames Loughborough, (London, Hull and Hartlepool), Watson, (Jarrow and Hartlepool), Ballard and Glassop (E. London), Mowbray, Pounder and Bulmer, (all Hartlepool), Leggett (Middlesborough and elsewhere).
--
Sent from: http://gramps.1791082.n4.nabble.com/GRAMPS-User-f1807095.html

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Martin, SW London

My Gedmatch DNA Kit# is H062246

I am using GrampsAIO64-4.2.6-1 on Windows 10.

Names: Loughborough and Loughbrough, (London, Hull, Pirton and Hartlepool), Watson, (Bedlington, Jarrow & H'pool), Ballard & Glassop (E. London),  Leggett (Corton, Scarborough, Hartlepool, & Barnington, Yorks.)  Young & Wilson, (Hartlepool).  I use GRAMPS 4.2.6 software.
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Re: This is the captain of your ship...

John W. Kitz-3
Martnal,

On 2017-11-29 16:21, Martnal wrote:
> Thank you all.  More questions yet to consider!
>
> I have one instance (1881) where he (Captain James Laird of Aberdeen)
> is
> listed on his ship and also in local port accommodation at the same
> time.  I
> am still trying to make decisions based on the other suggestions and my
> own
> needs.

May I suggest to define goals for yourself pertinent to the research you
intent do. From experience and in the absence of such goals there is a
considerable risk of goal or scope creep and the associated risk of
never being sure when you're done or even actually finishing your
research, because there are so many aspect of ancestors that one might
record and research, ranging from birth, marriage and death events, from
professional to religious events as well as events associated to one's
military career to name just a few.

Which in and of itself doesn't need to be a problem, if you don't mind,
but if you define relatively limited goals in the beginning and achieve
those, you have (a moment of) success and can subsequently define (a)
new goal(s) aimed at expanding your research and so on in an iterative
manner.

The idea behind this is that success tends to breed success.

> If I record the ship as a place, I must decide how to record such
> things as
> Build Date, Build Location, Vessel weight etc.

You must not, the decision is yours, since it is your research and yours
alone (see above).

> (Off topic, two of his ships sank soon after passing them onto other
> captains...!)
>
> Martin

Success and enjoy, regards, Jk.

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Re: This is the captain of your ship...

Martnal
These are all such useful comments.  Thank you all.  

One more, if I record a vessel as a place, I'd welcome suggestions about how
I should record details of the vessel, other than adding them to a place
note.  I'd like to record details of the building of the ship, and any
changes of ownership.  Are they just events relating to a place?

Martin



-----

Martin, SW London

I am using GrampsAIO64-4.2.5-1 on Windows 10.

I am researching surnames Loughborough, (London, Hull and Hartlepool), Watson, (Jarrow and Hartlepool), Ballard and Glassop (E. London), Mowbray, Pounder and Bulmer, (all Hartlepool), Leggett (Middlesborough and elsewhere).
--
Sent from: http://gramps.1791082.n4.nabble.com/GRAMPS-User-f1807095.html

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Martin, SW London

My Gedmatch DNA Kit# is H062246

I am using GrampsAIO64-4.2.6-1 on Windows 10.

Names: Loughborough and Loughbrough, (London, Hull, Pirton and Hartlepool), Watson, (Bedlington, Jarrow & H'pool), Ballard & Glassop (E. London),  Leggett (Corton, Scarborough, Hartlepool, & Barnington, Yorks.)  Young & Wilson, (Hartlepool).  I use GRAMPS 4.2.6 software.
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Re: This is the captain of your ship...

paul womack
Martnal wrote:
> These are all such useful comments.  Thank you all.
>
> One more, if I record a vessel as a place, I'd welcome suggestions about how
> I should record details of the vessel, other than adding them to a place
> note.  I'd like to record details of the building of the ship, and any
> changes of ownership.  Are they just events relating to a place?

Only Persons have events.

    BugBear

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Re: This is the captain of your ship...

Dave Scheipers
In reply to this post by Martnal
Hi Martin,

You have chosen to make the ship a place. Maybe I would not have made
that choice, but I can see how it does and can work. So now as a
place, how do you provide information about that place. Notes,
pictures, external links and citations attached to that place. The
same as you would do for the place where the Captain of your ship was
born.

Remember, you are doing your family's genealogy. Not the Ship's. John
warned about goal creep above.

Dave

On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 5:55 AM, Martnal <[hidden email]> wrote:

> These are all such useful comments.  Thank you all.
>
> One more, if I record a vessel as a place, I'd welcome suggestions about how
> I should record details of the vessel, other than adding them to a place
> note.  I'd like to record details of the building of the ship, and any
> changes of ownership.  Are they just events relating to a place?
>
> Martin
>
>
>
> -----
>
> Martin, SW London
>
> I am using GrampsAIO64-4.2.5-1 on Windows 10.
>
> I am researching surnames Loughborough, (London, Hull and Hartlepool), Watson, (Jarrow and Hartlepool), Ballard and Glassop (E. London), Mowbray, Pounder and Bulmer, (all Hartlepool), Leggett (Middlesborough and elsewhere).
> --
> Sent from: http://gramps.1791082.n4.nabble.com/GRAMPS-User-f1807095.html
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> _______________________________________________
> Gramps-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
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Re: This is the captain of your ship...

Martnal
Paul, Dave and others thank you. I had not realised that you could not attach
an event to a place . I am aware of the alternate name option, but what
about events in the life of a place, such as a building fire, or  or a
church being deconsecrated, or a factory being converted for residential
use, or two houses being knocked into one?

Dave, I accept your comment that i'm doing the history of my family not the
history of places where they live, and although I am not unduly worried
about scope creep, I realise I must draw the line somewhere.

Martin



-----

Martin, SW London

I am using GrampsAIO64-4.2.5-1 on Windows 10.

I am researching surnames Loughborough, (London, Hull and Hartlepool), Watson, (Jarrow and Hartlepool), Ballard and Glassop (E. London), Mowbray, Pounder and Bulmer, (all Hartlepool), Leggett (Middlesborough and elsewhere).
--
Sent from: http://gramps.1791082.n4.nabble.com/GRAMPS-User-f1807095.html

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Martin, SW London

My Gedmatch DNA Kit# is H062246

I am using GrampsAIO64-4.2.6-1 on Windows 10.

Names: Loughborough and Loughbrough, (London, Hull, Pirton and Hartlepool), Watson, (Bedlington, Jarrow & H'pool), Ballard & Glassop (E. London),  Leggett (Corton, Scarborough, Hartlepool, & Barnington, Yorks.)  Young & Wilson, (Hartlepool).  I use GRAMPS 4.2.6 software.
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Re: This is the captain of your ship...

John W. Kitz-3
In reply to this post by Dave Scheipers
Martin,

On 2017-11-30 13:51, Dave Scheipers wrote:

> Hi Martin,
>
> You have chosen to make the ship a place. Maybe I would not have made
> that choice, but I can see how it does and can work. So now as a
> place, how do you provide information about that place. Notes,
> pictures, external links and citations attached to that place. The
> same as you would do for the place where the Captain of your ship was
> born.
>
> Remember, you are doing your family's genealogy. Not the Ship's. John
> warned about goal creep above.

At the risk of over stating it, the point I was trying to make is that
your initial goal might be to merely collect births, marriages and
deaths as well as the relationship (who is whose child or spouse)
between the ancestors of whom you collect data.

When you are satisfied you successfully achieved your initial goal,
define a new one for your research, e.g. collect data about engagements
that preceded the marriages and divorces that may have followed some of
the marriages.

Again when you are satisfied you successfully achieved that goal, define
a new one, such as e.g. collect more detailed information about any of
the vessels that you have chosen to enter as places in your data, etc.,
etc.

I realize this may sound a bit corporate-like, but you might like to
refer to a brief Wikipedia article
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMART_criteria) about one of many methods
of doing this, which IMHO does contain some very useful pointers for
more mundane tasks such as the hobby of genealogy.

>
> Dave
>
> On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 5:55 AM, Martnal <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>> These are all such useful comments.  Thank you all.
>>
>> One more, if I record a vessel as a place, I'd welcome suggestions
>> about how
>> I should record details of the vessel, other than adding them to a
>> place
>> note.  I'd like to record details of the building of the ship, and any
>> changes of ownership.  Are they just events relating to a place?
>>
>> Martin

Success, enjoy and regards, Jk.

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Re: This is the captain of your ship...

Brad Rogers
In reply to this post by Martnal
On Thu, 30 Nov 2017 07:05:26 -0700 (MST)
Martnal <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello Martnal,

>church being deconsecrated, or a factory being converted for residential
>use, or two houses being knocked into one?

Like Dave said;

 Notes
 Pictures
 Sources/citations

--
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         / )           "The blindingly obvious is
        / _)rad        never immediately apparent"
Sign away your life
Tin Soldiers - Stiff Little Fingers

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Re: This is the captain of your ship...

John W. Kitz-3
Martin,

On 2017-11-30 15:40, Brad Rogers wrote:

> On Thu, 30 Nov 2017 07:05:26 -0700 (MST)
> Martnal wrote:
>
> Hello Martnal,
>
>> church being deconsecrated, or a factory being converted for
>> residential
>> use, or two houses being knocked into one?
>
> Like Dave said;
>
>  Notes
>  Pictures
>  Sources/citations

Considering the goals of your own research and my earlier remarks, you
might consider relying on a single link pointing to the fruits of the
hard labor of others with regards to the details of vessels.

E.g. let's assume you have an event that occurred aboard the motor
vessel named "THUN GREENWICH" built in 2007. In which case including a
link to http://www.marhisdata.nl/main.php?to_page=schip&id=13265 might
suffice.

If you prefer entering data specific to the vessel in Gramps itself you
could have a look at some of the pages of
http://www.marhisdata.nl/en/index2.php to get ideas as to what you might
research and include in your data.

Regards, Jk.

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Re: This is the captain of your ship...

Martnal
After a lot of consideration, and frequent reading of the recent comments, I
have decided to go ahead and treat ships' voyages of Captain as occupation
events. Thank you all for your contributions. It now seems so logical and
sensible but without your comments I would still be wondering.

As for 'scope creep', two years ago I set out purely to find out anything
about my grandfather, and my enthusiasm spread!

Martin



-----

Martin, SW London

I am using GrampsAIO64-4.2.5-1 on Windows 10.

I am researching surnames Loughborough, (London, Hull and Hartlepool), Watson, (Jarrow and Hartlepool), Ballard and Glassop (E. London), Mowbray, Pounder and Bulmer, (all Hartlepool), Leggett (Middlesborough and elsewhere).
--
Sent from: http://gramps.1791082.n4.nabble.com/GRAMPS-User-f1807095.html

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Martin, SW London

My Gedmatch DNA Kit# is H062246

I am using GrampsAIO64-4.2.6-1 on Windows 10.

Names: Loughborough and Loughbrough, (London, Hull, Pirton and Hartlepool), Watson, (Bedlington, Jarrow & H'pool), Ballard & Glassop (E. London),  Leggett (Corton, Scarborough, Hartlepool, & Barnington, Yorks.)  Young & Wilson, (Hartlepool).  I use GRAMPS 4.2.6 software.