Translation info.

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Translation info.

Peter Landgren
Hi,

Going thru my sv.po I have found six English words, for events, translated to
three Swedish. This is confusing, so I need some input to see if I can
improve the translation.

1. Bar Mitzvah and Bas Mitzvah       translated as Bar mitsva
    (There is also a Bat Mitzvah i wikipedia)
2. Baptism and christening               translated as dop
3. Graduation and degree                 translated as examen

/Peter

--
Peter Landgren
Talken Hagen
671  94 Brunskog
SWEDEN

0570-530 21
070-635 4719
[hidden email]
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Re: Translation info.

Andreas K.-2
Regarding Peter's question about the translation of the two words baptism and christening: Does these two words mean the same thing, only with different connotations, or what is the difference between them?
 
After consulting several dictionaries and lexicons, I cannot see any difference in their meaning.
 
Andreas
 
 

> Message: 7
> Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 10:43:41 +0100
> From: Peter Landgren <[hidden email]>
> Subject: [Gramps-devel] Translation info.
> To: gramps-devel <[hidden email]>
> Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Hi,
>
> Going thru my sv.po I have found six English words, for events, translated to
> three Swedish. This is confusing, so I need some input to see if I can
> improve the translation.
>
> 1. Bar Mitzvah and Bas Mitzvah translated as Bar mitsva
> (There is also a Bat Mitzvah i wikipedia)
> 2. Baptism and christening translated as dop
> 3. Graduation and degree translated as examen
>
> /Peter
>
> --
> Peter Landgren
> Talken Hagen
> 671 94 Brunskog
> SWEDEN
>
> 0570-530 21
> 070-635 4719
> [hidden email]
> skype:pgl4820
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc.
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>
>
> End of Gramps-devel Digest, Vol 18, Issue 24
> ********************************************



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Re: Translation info.

Julio Sánchez-2
Andreas,

The explanation is in the GEDCOM spec.  Alright, as always, this is GRAMPS, not GEDCOM, but they thought about a lot of things for GEDCOM that most of us, who have a limited experience beyond our own culture, do not understand and, most of all, we would never have included in a program designed on our own.  So, even if not followed literally, the GEDCOM spec is wll worth reading while designing genealogy programs.

Fact is that some religions baptize shortly after birth (mostly, Catholics).  Others don't baptize children, only adults.  Other religions don't baptize at all but have some kind of ceremony where a name is imposed on the recently born child.  Many of these ceremonies leave records and many times (in old times, for example) that's all you've got about the child.  Christenings and newborn baptisms are a very good estimators for the birth date.  In some regions and periods it would be off by less than two days in almost every case.  Nowadays, months can pass between birth and baptism but it is not that important anymore because we have Civil Registration now.

So, these different event types are meant to cover Christening/infant baptism, adult baptism and baptisms of unidentified types, IIRC.

Regards,

Julio

2007/11/12, Andreas Karlsson < [hidden email]>:
Regarding Peter's question about the translation of the two words baptism and christening: Does these two words mean the same thing, only with different connotations, or what is the difference between them?
 
After consulting several dictionaries and lexicons, I cannot see any difference in their meaning.
 
Andreas
 
 

> Message: 7
> Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 10:43:41 +0100
> From: Peter Landgren <[hidden email]>
> Subject: [Gramps-devel] Translation info.
> To: gramps-devel <[hidden email]>
> Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>
> Hi,
>
> Going thru my sv.po I have found six English words, for events, translated to
> three Swedish. This is confusing, so I need some input to see if I can
> improve the translation.
>
> 1. Bar Mitzvah and Bas Mitzvah translated as Bar mitsva
> (There is also a Bat Mitzvah i wikipedia)
> 2. Baptism and christening translated as dop
> 3. Graduation and degree translated as examen
>
> /Peter
>
> --
> Peter Landgren
> Talken Hagen
> 671 94 Brunskog
> SWEDEN
>
> 0570-530 21
> 070-635 4719
> [hidden email]
> skype:pgl4820
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc.
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>
>
> End of Gramps-devel Digest, Vol 18, Issue 24
> ********************************************



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Re: Translation info.

robhealey1
In reply to this post by Andreas K.-2
Dear Andreas:

        From the information that I could find, it has the same meaning in
English.  Baptism and christening seem to be interchangeable....

Sincerely,
Rob G. Healey

On Mon, 2007-11-12 at 10:18 +0100, Andreas Karlsson wrote:

> Regarding Peter's question about the translation of the two words
> baptism and christening: Does these two words mean the same thing,
> only with different connotations, or what is the difference between
> them?
>  
> After consulting several dictionaries and lexicons, I cannot see any
> difference in their meaning.
>  
> Andreas
>  
>  
>
> > Message: 7
> > Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 10:43:41 +0100
> > From: Peter Landgren <[hidden email]>
> > Subject: [Gramps-devel] Translation info.
> > To: gramps-devel <[hidden email]>
> > Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > Going thru my sv.po I have found six English words, for events,
> translated to
> > three Swedish. This is confusing, so I need some input to see if I
> can
> > improve the translation.
> >
> > 1. Bar Mitzvah and Bas Mitzvah translated as Bar mitsva
> > (There is also a Bat Mitzvah i wikipedia)
> > 2. Baptism and christening translated as dop
> > 3. Graduation and degree translated as examen
> >
> > /Peter
> >
> > --
> > Peter Landgren
> > Talken Hagen
> > 671 94 Brunskog
> > SWEDEN
> >
> > 0570-530 21
> > 070-635 4719
> > [hidden email]
> > skype:pgl4820
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc.
> > Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop.
> > Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a
> browser.
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> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Gramps-devel mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-devel
> >
> >
> > End of Gramps-devel Digest, Vol 18, Issue 24
> > ********************************************
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
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--
Sincerely Yours,
Rob G. Healey

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Re: Translation info.

Don Allingham-3
My understanding:

A christening is typically a combined infant baptism/naming ceremony. I
believe it is common in the Catholic church.

A baptism typically does not have any naming ceremony as part of it, and
is not always associated with infants.



On Mon, 2007-11-12 at 05:11 -0800, Rob G. Healey wrote:

> Dear Andreas:
>
> From the information that I could find, it has the same meaning in
> English.  Baptism and christening seem to be interchangeable....
>
> Sincerely,
> Rob G. Healey
>
> On Mon, 2007-11-12 at 10:18 +0100, Andreas Karlsson wrote:
> > Regarding Peter's question about the translation of the two words
> > baptism and christening: Does these two words mean the same thing,
> > only with different connotations, or what is the difference between
> > them?
> >  
> > After consulting several dictionaries and lexicons, I cannot see any
> > difference in their meaning.
> >  
> > Andreas
> >  
> >  
> >
> > > Message: 7
> > > Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 10:43:41 +0100
> > > From: Peter Landgren <[hidden email]>
> > > Subject: [Gramps-devel] Translation info.
> > > To: gramps-devel <[hidden email]>
> > > Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > Going thru my sv.po I have found six English words, for events,
> > translated to
> > > three Swedish. This is confusing, so I need some input to see if I
> > can
> > > improve the translation.
> > >
> > > 1. Bar Mitzvah and Bas Mitzvah translated as Bar mitsva
> > > (There is also a Bat Mitzvah i wikipedia)
> > > 2. Baptism and christening translated as dop
> > > 3. Graduation and degree translated as examen
> > >
> > > /Peter
> > >
> > > --
> > > Peter Landgren
> > > Talken Hagen
> > > 671 94 Brunskog
> > > SWEDEN
> > >
> > > 0570-530 21
> > > 070-635 4719
> > > [hidden email]
> > > skype:pgl4820
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > >
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc.
> > > Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop.
> > > Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a
> > browser.
> > > Download your FREE copy of Splunk now >> http://get.splunk.com/
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Gramps-devel mailing list
> > > [hidden email]
> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-devel
> > >
> > >
> > > End of Gramps-devel Digest, Vol 18, Issue 24
> > > ********************************************
> >
> >
> >
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Re: Translation info.

Peter Landgren
In reply to this post by robhealey1
Dear Rob,

> Dear Andreas:
>
> From the information that I could find, it has the same meaning in
> English.  Baptism and christening seem to be interchangeable....

So the question is then: why are there two words for one(?) event type?

/Peter


> Sincerely,
> Rob G. Healey
>
> On Mon, 2007-11-12 at 10:18 +0100, Andreas Karlsson wrote:
> > Regarding Peter's question about the translation of the two words
> > baptism and christening: Does these two words mean the same thing,
> > only with different connotations, or what is the difference between
> > them?
> >
> > After consulting several dictionaries and lexicons, I cannot see any
> > difference in their meaning.
> >
> > Andreas
> >
> > > Message: 7
> > > Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 10:43:41 +0100
> > > From: Peter Landgren <[hidden email]>
> > > Subject: [Gramps-devel] Translation info.
> > > To: gramps-devel <[hidden email]>
> > > Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > Going thru my sv.po I have found six English words, for events,
> >
> > translated to
> >
> > > three Swedish. This is confusing, so I need some input to see if I
> >
> > can
> >
> > > improve the translation.
> > >
> > > 1. Bar Mitzvah and Bas Mitzvah translated as Bar mitsva
> > > (There is also a Bat Mitzvah i wikipedia)
> > > 2. Baptism and christening translated as dop
> > > 3. Graduation and degree translated as examen
> > >
> > > /Peter
> > >
> > > --
> > > Peter Landgren
> > > Talken Hagen
> > > 671 94 Brunskog
> > > SWEDEN
> > >
> > > 0570-530 21
> > > 070-635 4719
> > > [hidden email]
> > > skype:pgl4820
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > > This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc.
> > > Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop.
> > > Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a
> >
> > browser.
> >
> > > Download your FREE copy of Splunk now >> http://get.splunk.com/
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Gramps-devel mailing list
> > > [hidden email]
> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-devel
> > >
> > >
> > > End of Gramps-devel Digest, Vol 18, Issue 24
> > > ********************************************
> >
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--
Peter Landgren
Talken Hagen
671  94 Brunskog
SWEDEN

0570-530 21
070-635 4719
[hidden email]
skype:pgl4820

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Re: Translation info.

Benny Malengier
Dear Rob,

> Dear Andreas:
>
>       From the information that I could find, it has the same meaning in
> English.  Baptism and christening seem to be interchangeable....

So the question is then: why are there two words for one(?) event type?

The answer was given by Julio as wel as Don. There are two meanings in GEDCOM, so also in GRAMPS. Check GEDCOM for the why.

Benny
 



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Re: Translation info.

Julio Sánchez-2
In reply to this post by Peter Landgren
Peter,

Since there is no formal definition in GRAMPS for these event type, let's see what they map into while exporting to GEDCOM:

"Baptism" maps to "BAPM".  The GEDCOM 5.5.1 spec reads:

    The event of baptism (not LDS), performed in infancy or later.

I.e. baptism at some indeterminate age.  Only estimates birth date within a several decades range.

"Christening" maps to "CHR".  The spec reads:

   The religious event (not LDS) of baptizing and/or naming a child.

I.e. what Catholics do, but also any civil or religious ceremony where a name is imposed on a child.  From what I read, some non European cultures do it.

"Adult Christening" maps to "CHRA".  The spec reads: 

   The religious event (not LDS) of baptizing and/or naming an adult person.

I have read somewhere that some religions do CHR first and then CHRA when adults.

I think that originally, the BAPM ("Baptism") tag existed, CHR and CHRA were invented later.  So maybe it is possible to drop Baptism, but then how should BAPM be mapped on GEDCOM import?  If you choose CHRA, we Catholics will complain.  If you choose CHR, Protestants may complain.  To be able to import meaningfully GEDCOM, you need the three event types.  I suppose not all agree, but for me, good handling of GEDCOM is a very important requirement for a genealogy program.

Probably, the English strings should be modified so it is clearer what is meant.  I had to do this exercise while translating the event types into Spanish, that presents more problems.  To begin with we don't have two words, we had to map everything to "Bautismo" with some qualifiers.  It is ugly and messy, but unavoidable.

Regards,

Julio



2007/11/12, Peter Landgren <[hidden email]>:
Dear Rob,

> Dear Andreas:
>
>       From the information that I could find, it has the same meaning in
> English.  Baptism and christening seem to be interchangeable....

So the question is then: why are there two words for one(?) event type?

/Peter


> Sincerely,
> Rob G. Healey
>
> On Mon, 2007-11-12 at 10:18 +0100, Andreas Karlsson wrote:
> > Regarding Peter's question about the translation of the two words
> > baptism and christening: Does these two words mean the same thing,
> > only with different connotations, or what is the difference between
> > them?
> >
> > After consulting several dictionaries and lexicons, I cannot see any
> > difference in their meaning.
> >
> > Andreas
> >
> > > Message: 7
> > > Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 10:43:41 +0100
> > > From: Peter Landgren <[hidden email]>
> > > Subject: [Gramps-devel] Translation info.
> > > To: gramps-devel <[hidden email]>
> > > Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > Going thru my sv.po I have found six English words, for events,
> >
> > translated to
> >
> > > three Swedish. This is confusing, so I need some input to see if I
> >
> > can
> >
> > > improve the translation.
> > >
> > > 1. Bar Mitzvah and Bas Mitzvah translated as Bar mitsva
> > > (There is also a Bat Mitzvah i wikipedia)
> > > 2. Baptism and christening translated as dop
> > > 3. Graduation and degree translated as examen
> > >
> > > /Peter
> > >
> > > --
> > > Peter Landgren
> > > Talken Hagen
> > > 671 94 Brunskog
> > > SWEDEN
> > >
> > > 0570-530 21
> > > 070-635 4719
> > > [hidden email]
> > > skype:pgl4820
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > > This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc.
> > > Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop.
> > > Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a
> >
> > browser.
> >
> > > Download your FREE copy of Splunk now >> http://get.splunk.com/
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Gramps-devel mailing list
> > > [hidden email]
> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-devel
> > >
> > >
> > > End of Gramps-devel Digest, Vol 18, Issue 24
> > > ********************************************
> >
> > ______________________________________________________________________
> > Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! MSN Messenger
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > Still grepping through log files to find problems?  Stop.
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--
Peter Landgren
Talken Hagen
671  94 Brunskog
SWEDEN

0570-530 21
070-635 4719
[hidden email]
skype:pgl4820

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Re: Translation info.

Peter Landgren
In reply to this post by Julio Sánchez-2
Julio, all

Yes, I understand the difference between cultures etc., but the problem for me
is to find two separate Swedish words describing this, for the two English
ones.

I looked through 8 translations and found:

                   Baptism                          Christening
German      Taufe                              Kleinkindtaufe
Nynorsk      Dåp (katolsk)                 Dåp
Bokmål       Dåp (katolsk)                 Dåp
Finish          Restiäset                       Kaste
Danish        Dåb                                Dåb
Swedish      Dop                                Dop
French        Baptême                         Baptême religieux
Spanish      Bautismo                        Bautismo Infantil

(Dåp - dåb - dop are "Scandinavian" words.)

Finish has two different words, "restiäset" meaning the "baptism ceremony"
and "kaste" just "baptism".

In German there are two words "Taufe", meaning "baptism" and "Kleinkindtaufe"
meaning "baptism of a baby".

French ans Spanish are self explaining.

And, what is the difference between A "Catholic Baptism" and "Baptism"?

If we do not agree about this, I think a report generated in another language
than your own, could become less accurate.

/Peter


> Andreas,
>
> The explanation is in the GEDCOM spec.  Alright, as always, this is GRAMPS,
> not GEDCOM, but they thought about a lot of things for GEDCOM that most of
> us, who have a limited experience beyond our own culture, do not understand
> and, most of all, we would never have included in a program designed on our
> own.  So, even if not followed literally, the GEDCOM spec is wll worth
> reading while designing genealogy programs.
>
> Fact is that some religions baptize shortly after birth (mostly,
> Catholics).  Others don't baptize children, only adults.  Other religions
> don't baptize at all but have some kind of ceremony where a name is imposed
> on the recently born child.  Many of these ceremonies leave records and
> many times (in old times, for example) that's all you've got about the
> child. Christenings and newborn baptisms are a very good estimators for the
> birth date.  In some regions and periods it would be off by less than two
> days in almost every case.  Nowadays, months can pass between birth and
> baptism but it is not that important anymore because we have Civil
> Registration now.
>
> So, these different event types are meant to cover Christening/infant
> baptism, adult baptism and baptisms of unidentified types, IIRC.
>
> Regards,
>
> Julio
>
> 2007/11/12, Andreas Karlsson <[hidden email]>:
> >  Regarding Peter's question about the translation of the two words
> > baptism and christening: Does these two words mean the same thing, only
> > with different connotations, or what is the difference between them?
> >
> > After consulting several dictionaries and lexicons, I cannot see any
> > difference in their meaning.
> >
> > Andreas
> >
> > > Message: 7
> > > Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 10:43:41 +0100
> > > From: Peter Landgren <[hidden email]>
> > > Subject: [Gramps-devel] Translation info.
> > > To: gramps-devel <[hidden email]>
> > > Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > Going thru my sv.po I have found six English words, for events,
> >
> > translated to
> >
> > > three Swedish. This is confusing, so I need some input to see if I can
> > > improve the translation.
> > >
> > > 1. Bar Mitzvah and Bas Mitzvah translated as Bar mitsva
> > > (There is also a Bat Mitzvah i wikipedia)
> > > 2. Baptism and christening translated as dop
> > > 3. Graduation and degree translated as examen
> > >
> > > /Peter
> > >
> > > --
> > > Peter Landgren
> > > Talken Hagen
> > > 671 94 Brunskog
> > > SWEDEN
> > >
> > > 0570-530 21
> > > 070-635 4719
> > > [hidden email]
> > > skype:pgl4820
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Translation info.

Benny Malengier
These are problems in translation. The art of translating is to find a good enough match, if necessary even invent something.

Note that for english users, the word christening also does not cover the GEDCOM meaning fully. That is 'The religious event (not LDS) of baptizing and/or naming a child.' while christining is actually giving somebody a christian name. So if muslims don't baptize (I wouldn't know), but have a name giving ceromony, the CHR event must should be used.

For 3.0, I want to add to the event dialog a description label, so the entire meaning of an event can be shown to users. I also would like to add subtype to an event, extending slightly GEDCOM. This has been discussed before and found a good idea by all.

Benny

2007/11/12, Peter Landgren <[hidden email]>:
Julio, all

Yes, I understand the difference between cultures etc., but the problem for me
is to find two separate Swedish words describing this, for the two English
ones.

I looked through 8 translations and found:

                   Baptism                          Christening
German      Taufe                              Kleinkindtaufe
Nynorsk      Dåp (katolsk)                 Dåp
Bokmål       Dåp (katolsk)                 Dåp
Finish          Restiäset                       Kaste
Danish        Dåb                                Dåb
Swedish      Dop                                Dop
French        Baptême                         Baptême religieux
Spanish      Bautismo                        Bautismo Infantil

(Dåp - dåb - dop are "Scandinavian" words.)

Finish has two different words, "restiäset" meaning the "baptism ceremony"
and "kaste" just "baptism".

In German there are two words "Taufe", meaning "baptism" and "Kleinkindtaufe"
meaning "baptism of a baby".

French ans Spanish are self explaining.

And, what is the difference between A "Catholic Baptism" and "Baptism"?

If we do not agree about this, I think a report generated in another language
than your own, could become less accurate.

/Peter


> Andreas,
>
> The explanation is in the GEDCOM spec.  Alright, as always, this is GRAMPS,
> not GEDCOM, but they thought about a lot of things for GEDCOM that most of
> us, who have a limited experience beyond our own culture, do not understand
> and, most of all, we would never have included in a program designed on our
> own.  So, even if not followed literally, the GEDCOM spec is wll worth
> reading while designing genealogy programs.
>
> Fact is that some religions baptize shortly after birth (mostly,
> Catholics).  Others don't baptize children, only adults.  Other religions
> don't baptize at all but have some kind of ceremony where a name is imposed
> on the recently born child.  Many of these ceremonies leave records and
> many times (in old times, for example) that's all you've got about the
> child. Christenings and newborn baptisms are a very good estimators for the
> birth date.  In some regions and periods it would be off by less than two
> days in almost every case.  Nowadays, months can pass between birth and
> baptism but it is not that important anymore because we have Civil
> Registration now.
>
> So, these different event types are meant to cover Christening/infant
> baptism, adult baptism and baptisms of unidentified types, IIRC.
>
> Regards,
>
> Julio
>
> 2007/11/12, Andreas Karlsson <[hidden email]>:
> >  Regarding Peter's question about the translation of the two words
> > baptism and christening: Does these two words mean the same thing, only

> > with different connotations, or what is the difference between them?
> >
> > After consulting several dictionaries and lexicons, I cannot see any
> > difference in their meaning.
> >
> > Andreas
> >
> > > Message: 7
> > > Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 10:43:41 +0100
> > > From: Peter Landgren <[hidden email]>
> > > Subject: [Gramps-devel] Translation info.
> > > To: gramps-devel <[hidden email]>
> > > Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > Going thru my sv.po I have found six English words, for events,
> >
> > translated to
> >
> > > three Swedish. This is confusing, so I need some input to see if I can
> > > improve the translation.
> > >
> > > 1. Bar Mitzvah and Bas Mitzvah translated as Bar mitsva
> > > (There is also a Bat Mitzvah i wikipedia)
> > > 2. Baptism and christening translated as dop
> > > 3. Graduation and degree translated as examen
> > >
> > > /Peter
> > >
> > > --
> > > Peter Landgren
> > > Talken Hagen
> > > 671 94 Brunskog
> > > SWEDEN
> > >
> > > 0570-530 21
> > > 070-635 4719
> > > [hidden email]
> > > skype:pgl4820
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > > This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc.
> > > Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop.
> > > Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser.
> > > Download your FREE copy of Splunk now >> http://get.splunk.com/
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> > > [hidden email]
> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-devel
> > >
> > >
> > > End of Gramps-devel Digest, Vol 18, Issue 24
> > > ********************************************
> >
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--
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Talken Hagen
671  94 Brunskog
SWEDEN

0570-530 21
070-635 4719
[hidden email]
skype:pgl4820

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Re: Translation info.

Julio Sánchez-2
In reply to this post by Peter Landgren
Peter,

While translating the event types, I had the GEDCOM spec before me.  I was checking what they were mapping into and reading the definitions.  For Spanish, I settled for "Bautismo", "Bautismo adulto" y "Bautismo infantil".  It is very ugly, we Catholics never use that.  But the string has to be understood (maybe with some effort) by people following other religions.  There are Protestant, Jews, Muslims, etc. who have Spanish as their mother tongue, so I had to resist the temptation to translate "Christening" as "Bautismo" and be done with it.  I would have done it anyway if I could have translated "Baptism" as something else, but I could not.  So Catholics had to yield.  PAF does something similar, by the way.

Whatever is done, the specific concepts behind each event type should be same for every language, for the same reasons you give.  I think the concept behind the French translation is not exactly the same as that in German, Spanish or in the GEDCOM spec.

Regards,

Julio


2007/11/12, Peter Landgren <[hidden email]>:
Julio, all

Yes, I understand the difference between cultures etc., but the problem for me
is to find two separate Swedish words describing this, for the two English
ones.

I looked through 8 translations and found:

                   Baptism                          Christening
German      Taufe                              Kleinkindtaufe
Nynorsk      Dåp (katolsk)                 Dåp
Bokmål       Dåp (katolsk)                 Dåp
Finish          Restiäset                       Kaste
Danish        Dåb                                Dåb
Swedish      Dop                                Dop
French        Baptême                         Baptême religieux
Spanish      Bautismo                        Bautismo Infantil

(Dåp - dåb - dop are "Scandinavian" words.)

Finish has two different words, "restiäset" meaning the "baptism ceremony"
and "kaste" just "baptism".

In German there are two words "Taufe", meaning "baptism" and "Kleinkindtaufe"
meaning "baptism of a baby".

French ans Spanish are self explaining.

And, what is the difference between A "Catholic Baptism" and "Baptism"?

If we do not agree about this, I think a report generated in another language
than your own, could become less accurate.

/Peter


> Andreas,
>
> The explanation is in the GEDCOM spec.  Alright, as always, this is GRAMPS,
> not GEDCOM, but they thought about a lot of things for GEDCOM that most of
> us, who have a limited experience beyond our own culture, do not understand
> and, most of all, we would never have included in a program designed on our
> own.  So, even if not followed literally, the GEDCOM spec is wll worth
> reading while designing genealogy programs.
>
> Fact is that some religions baptize shortly after birth (mostly,
> Catholics).  Others don't baptize children, only adults.  Other religions
> don't baptize at all but have some kind of ceremony where a name is imposed
> on the recently born child.  Many of these ceremonies leave records and
> many times (in old times, for example) that's all you've got about the
> child. Christenings and newborn baptisms are a very good estimators for the
> birth date.  In some regions and periods it would be off by less than two
> days in almost every case.  Nowadays, months can pass between birth and
> baptism but it is not that important anymore because we have Civil
> Registration now.
>
> So, these different event types are meant to cover Christening/infant
> baptism, adult baptism and baptisms of unidentified types, IIRC.
>
> Regards,
>
> Julio
>
> 2007/11/12, Andreas Karlsson <[hidden email]>:
> >  Regarding Peter's question about the translation of the two words
> > baptism and christening: Does these two words mean the same thing, only

> > with different connotations, or what is the difference between them?
> >
> > After consulting several dictionaries and lexicons, I cannot see any
> > difference in their meaning.
> >
> > Andreas
> >
> > > Message: 7
> > > Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 10:43:41 +0100
> > > From: Peter Landgren <[hidden email]>
> > > Subject: [Gramps-devel] Translation info.
> > > To: gramps-devel <[hidden email]>
> > > Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > Going thru my sv.po I have found six English words, for events,
> >
> > translated to
> >
> > > three Swedish. This is confusing, so I need some input to see if I can
> > > improve the translation.
> > >
> > > 1. Bar Mitzvah and Bas Mitzvah translated as Bar mitsva
> > > (There is also a Bat Mitzvah i wikipedia)
> > > 2. Baptism and christening translated as dop
> > > 3. Graduation and degree translated as examen
> > >
> > > /Peter
> > >
> > > --
> > > Peter Landgren
> > > Talken Hagen
> > > 671 94 Brunskog
> > > SWEDEN
> > >
> > > 0570-530 21
> > > 070-635 4719
> > > [hidden email]
> > > skype:pgl4820
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > > This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc.
> > > Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop.
> > > Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser.
> > > Download your FREE copy of Splunk now >> http://get.splunk.com/
> > >
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> > > Gramps-devel mailing list
> > > [hidden email]
> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-devel
> > >
> > >
> > > End of Gramps-devel Digest, Vol 18, Issue 24
> > > ********************************************
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--
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SWEDEN

0570-530 21
070-635 4719
[hidden email]
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Re: Translation info.

Alex Roitman
In reply to this post by Peter Landgren
For what it's worth, I remember a minister's response to this question
several years back. His point was that baptism is a correct formal word,
and christening is an informal word for the same. He mentioned that
informally speaking, one can christen a boat or a house, meaning to
initiate in some way. Baptism on the other hand is a "professional"
term, not a loose term in any sense.

I have no idea why both are in GEDCOM,
Alex

On Mon, 2007-11-12 at 16:14 +0100, Peter Landgren wrote:
> Dear Rob,
>
> > Dear Andreas:
> >
> > From the information that I could find, it has the same meaning in
> > English.  Baptism and christening seem to be interchangeable....
>
> So the question is then: why are there two words for one(?) event type?

--
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Re: Translation info.

Don Allingham
It probably depends on what minister you talked to, and what
denomination he/she belongs to.

Most Christian Protestant denominations in the U.S. do not use the term
"Christening". Virtually all have adult baptism, and about 1/2 have
child baptism.

>From what I understand, a Catholic Christening is a child baptism
possibly combined with a naming ceremony.

So what does this mean? Some people will think there is a significant
difference, while others won't.  I would recommend that you look into
the traditions of your area, and decide what makes the most sense.

Realistically, anything you pick will be wrong for someone. Just try to
do what matches what the majority would use in your locale.

In the US, it would make sense to have both. Some conservative Christian
churches would be offended if they had to use the term "christening",
which is viewed as a Catholic term. Some Catholics would be offended if
the term "christening" wasn't available, because it is part of their
traditions.

So, I would use your best judgment, and make a change down the road if
your guess proves to be wrong.

Don

On Mon, 2007-11-12 at 08:42 -0800, Alex Roitman wrote:

> For what it's worth, I remember a minister's response to this question
> several years back. His point was that baptism is a correct formal word,
> and christening is an informal word for the same. He mentioned that
> informally speaking, one can christen a boat or a house, meaning to
> initiate in some way. Baptism on the other hand is a "professional"
> term, not a loose term in any sense.
>
> I have no idea why both are in GEDCOM,
> Alex
>
> On Mon, 2007-11-12 at 16:14 +0100, Peter Landgren wrote:
> > Dear Rob,
> >
> > > Dear Andreas:
> > >
> > > From the information that I could find, it has the same meaning in
> > > English.  Baptism and christening seem to be interchangeable....
> >
> > So the question is then: why are there two words for one(?) event type?
>
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Re: Translation info.

Peter Landgren
In reply to this post by Benny Malengier
So, am I correct if I intertpret:
Baptism:
as a general word for the event
(GEDCOM tag BAPM)

Christening:
as a religious event of baptizing and/or naming a child
(GEDCOM tag CHR)

Adault Christening:
as the religious event of baptizing and/or naming an adult person
(GEDCOM tag CHRA)?

But this seems not to follow Alex's minister's response, I think.

Then I think I know how to translate.

Thanks for all input!
/Peter

> Dear Rob,
>
> > > Dear Andreas:
> > >
> > >       From the information that I could find, it has the same meaning
> > > in English.  Baptism and christening seem to be interchangeable....
> >
> > So the question is then: why are there two words for one(?) event type?
>
> The answer was given by Julio as wel as Don. There are two meanings in
> GEDCOM, so also in GRAMPS. Check GEDCOM for the why.
>
> Benny


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Re: Translation info.

Peter Landgren
In reply to this post by Don Allingham
> Most Christian Protestant denominations in the U.S. do not use the term
> "Christening". Virtually all have adult baptism, and about 1/2 have
> child baptism.

In Sweden, it would be the opposite. Virtually all Christian Protestant
denominations have child baptism, and about 2% have adult baptism.

> So what does this mean? Some people will think there is a significant
> difference, while others won't.  I would recommend that you look into
> the traditions of your area, and decide what makes the most sense.

Yes. It's too complicated to fit all, so I stick to the local tradition.

/Peter

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Re: Translation info.

jgsack
In reply to this post by Benny Malengier
Benny Malengier wrote:

> These are problems in translation. The art of translating is to find a good
> enough match, if necessary even invent something.
>
> Note that for english users, the word christening also does not cover the
> GEDCOM meaning fully. That is 'The religious event (not LDS) of baptizing
> and/or naming a child.' while christining is actually giving somebody a
> christian name. So if muslims don't baptize (I wouldn't know), but have a
> name giving ceromony, the CHR event must should be used.
>
> For 3.0, I want to add to the event dialog a description label, so the
> entire meaning of an event can be shown to users. I also would like to add
> subtype to an event, extending slightly GEDCOM. This has been discussed
> before and found a good idea by all.

Maybe gedcom could handle the concept of subtype via the
  TYPE <EVENT_DESCRIPTOR>
Evidently EVENT_DESCRIPTOR can be an ad-hoc value, see:

http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~pmcbride/gedcom/55gcch2.htm#EVENT_DESCRIPTOR

One limitation might be that an event can have only one such TYPE tag.

- - -

Aside from that, it might be worthwhile thinking about a syntax for
embedding application-specific information in notes.

Maybe something like (within the "SUBMITTER TEXT")
  APPTAG=GRAMPS/Event-Subtype APPVAL=...
(just my initial not-thought-out thought)

Regards,
..jim

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