When to use Baptism and Christening and what records to base the decision on.

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When to use Baptism and Christening and what records to base the decision on.

John W. Kitz-3

Hi,

 

It is my understanding that while it is not uncommon for the words Baptism and Christening to be used interchangeably there is a difference between the two.

 

Could anyone more knowledgeable with respect to religious rites be so kind as to provide a brief explanation, in particular of when to use Baptism as a life event over Christening or vice versa and what records/proof to base that decision on?

 

Regards, Jk.


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Re: When to use Baptism and Christening and what records to base the decision on.

Nick Hall
On 07/06/17 12:00, John W. Kitz wrote:

Could anyone more knowledgeable with respect to religious rites be so kind as to provide a brief explanation, in particular of when to use Baptism as a life event over Christening or vice versa and what records/proof to base that decision on?

See:

https://sourceforge.net/p/gramps/mailman/message/27879406/
https://sourceforge.net/p/gramps/mailman/message/27888551/

Nick.



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Re: When to use Baptism and Christening and what records to base the decision on.

Harvey Nimmo
I understand the terms to be interchangeable. Both are supposed to signal the entrance of a person into the church of Jesus Christ. From a family research viewpoint, one has to be aware that some Christian traditions do not baptise/christen babies, but wait until the persons can make up their own minds about their allegiance to Jesus (as in my own case!). Therefore, a baptism/christening event is not always close to the birth event. In my understanding, both terms are used for the baby and adult events. Where infant baptism/christening is practised, there is the adult event of confirmation, that would be equivalent to adult baptism/christening.

In my experience (but that need not be the standard!) the term christening is used mainly (but not exclusively) for the birth event. The term baptism tends to appear more often (than christening) as an adult event. 

Cheers
Harvey


On Wed, 2017-06-07 at 17:04 +0100, Nick Hall wrote:
On 07/06/17 12:00, John W. Kitz wrote:

Could anyone more knowledgeable with respect to religious rites be so kind as to provide a brief explanation, in particular of when to use Baptism as a life event over Christening or vice versa and what records/proof to base that decision on?

See:

https://sourceforge.net/p/gramps/mailman/message/27879406/
https://sourceforge.net/p/gramps/mailman/message/27888551/

Nick.


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Re: When to use Baptism and Christening and what records to base the decision on.

Philip Weiss
I don't try to standardize.  If the church calls it a baptism, I use baptism.  If the church calls it a christening, I use christening. So far, the only christenings I've got in my tree have come from newspaper reports of christenings.  All the church records I've used refer to baptisms.

Phil.

On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 9:36 AM, Harvey Nimmo <[hidden email]> wrote:
I understand the terms to be interchangeable. Both are supposed to signal the entrance of a person into the church of Jesus Christ. From a family research viewpoint, one has to be aware that some Christian traditions do not baptise/christen babies, but wait until the persons can make up their own minds about their allegiance to Jesus (as in my own case!). Therefore, a baptism/christening event is not always close to the birth event. In my understanding, both terms are used for the baby and adult events. Where infant baptism/christening is practised, there is the adult event of confirmation, that would be equivalent to adult baptism/christening.

In my experience (but that need not be the standard!) the term christening is used mainly (but not exclusively) for the birth event. The term baptism tends to appear more often (than christening) as an adult event. 

Cheers
Harvey


On Wed, 2017-06-07 at 17:04 +0100, Nick Hall wrote:
On 07/06/17 12:00, John W. Kitz wrote:

Could anyone more knowledgeable with respect to religious rites be so kind as to provide a brief explanation, in particular of when to use Baptism as a life event over Christening or vice versa and what records/proof to base that decision on?

See:

https://sourceforge.net/p/gramps/mailman/message/27879406/
https://sourceforge.net/p/gramps/mailman/message/27888551/

Nick.



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Re: When to use Baptism and Christening and what records to base the decision on.

Barry Titterton
In reply to this post by Harvey Nimmo
On 07/06/17 17:36, Harvey Nimmo wrote:

> I understand the terms to be interchangeable. Both are supposed to
> signal the entrance of a person into the church of Jesus Christ. From a
> family research viewpoint, one has to be aware that some Christian
> traditions do not baptise/christen babies, but wait until the persons
> can make up their own minds about their allegiance to Jesus (as in my
> own case!). Therefore, a baptism/christening event is not always close
> to the birth event. In my understanding, both terms are used for the
> baby and adult events. Where infant baptism/christening is practised,
> there is the adult event of confirmation, that would be equivalent to
> adult baptism/christening.
>
> In my experience (but that need not be the standard!) the term
> christening is used mainly (but not exclusively) for the birth event.
> The term baptism tends to appear more often (than christening) as an
> adult event.
>
> Cheers
> Harvey



Nowadays the terms are used interchangeably but baptism is the
technically correct term for the sacrament. Churches will keep a
register of baptisms, not of christenings. A christening will include
the sacrament of baptism. You are quite correct in that a person can be
baptised at any age. I have witnessed a middle aged couple being
baptised immediately prior to their wedding ceremony.

You are incorrect about confirmations: it is completely different
ceremony to a baptism and is most definitely not equivalent!

Please refer to the comments by the Rev Doug in the links in Nick's
post. My wife is also a minister of religion and she agrees with Doug.

Just to throw another spanner into the works: The Salvation Army, which
considers itself to be a christian church, does not practice baptisms,
they have infant dedications instead. The ceremony does not involve
water so it is not equivalent to a baptism. I do not know how Gramps
would deal with this.

Cheers,
Barry T

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Re: When to use Baptism and Christening and what records to base the decision on.

Dave Scheipers
In reply to this post by John W. Kitz-3
For what it's worth, I started my genealogy using PAF, the LDS software. They had as the main four events Christening. Baptism was an option but was not shown as an alternative birth event in lists etc if no birth record was entered..

One of the first things I did when I migrated to Gramps was to convert all christening events to baptism and I use this exclusively.

Dave

On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 7:00 AM, John W. Kitz <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi,

 

It is my understanding that while it is not uncommon for the words Baptism and Christening to be used interchangeably there is a difference between the two.

 

Could anyone more knowledgeable with respect to religious rites be so kind as to provide a brief explanation, in particular of when to use Baptism as a life event over Christening or vice versa and what records/proof to base that decision on?

 

Regards, Jk.


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Re: When to use Baptism and Christening and what records to base the decision on.

Harvey Nimmo
In reply to this post by Barry Titterton
On Wed, 2017-06-07 at 20:40 +0100, Barry Titterton wrote:

> On 07/06/17 17:36, Harvey Nimmo wrote:
> >
> > I understand the terms to be interchangeable. Both are supposed to
> > signal the entrance of a person into the church of Jesus Christ.
> > From a
> > family research viewpoint, one has to be aware that some Christian
> > traditions do not baptise/christen babies, but wait until the
> > persons
> > can make up their own minds about their allegiance to Jesus (as in
> > my
> > own case!). Therefore, a baptism/christening event is not always
> > close
> > to the birth event. In my understanding, both terms are used for
> > the
> > baby and adult events. Where infant baptism/christening is
> > practised,
> > there is the adult event of confirmation, that would be equivalent
> > to
> > adult baptism/christening.
> >
> > In my experience (but that need not be the standard!) the term
> > christening is used mainly (but not exclusively) for the birth
> > event.
> > The term baptism tends to appear more often (than christening) as
> > an
> > adult event. 
> >
> > Cheers
> > Harvey
>
>
>
> Nowadays the terms are used interchangeably but baptism is the
> technically correct term for the sacrament. Churches will keep a
> register of baptisms, not of christenings. A christening will include
> the sacrament of baptism. You are quite correct in that a person can
> be
> baptised at any age. I have witnessed a middle aged couple being
> baptised immediately prior to their wedding ceremony.
>
> You are incorrect about confirmations: it is completely different
> ceremony to a baptism and is most definitely not equivalent!
>
> Please refer to the comments by the Rev Doug in the links in Nick's
> post. My wife is also a minister of religion and she agrees with
> Doug.
>
> Just to throw another spanner into the works: The Salvation Army,
> which
> considers itself to be a christian church, does not practice
> baptisms,
> they have infant dedications instead. The ceremony does not involve
> water so it is not equivalent to a baptism. I do not know how Gramps
> would deal with this.
>
> Cheers,
> Barry T

Sorry, I did not mean to imply that confirmation is strictly equivalent
to adult baptism. As I understand it, it is supposed to be a
'confirmation' by the adult of the baptism/christening he was subjected
to at a time when he had no choice. I myself was dedicated/blessed in a
Baptist church as a baby and as a teenager decided to be baptised.

Cheers
Harvey

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Re: When to use Baptism and Christening and what records to base the decision on.

John W. Kitz-3
In reply to this post by John W. Kitz-3

All,

 

Thanks for your various points of view with respect to my question so far.

 

One of the factors that in hindsight may have contributed to me asking this question is that, although I prefer to use the English language version of Gramps, my (limited) knowledge of religious rites was mostly gained in a Dutch speaking environment in which the distinction between the various rites in terms of the words by which they are referred to is not always as clear as in the case of Baptism and Christening in those parts of the world in which English is the native language.

 

The various answers to my question therefore made me wonder; could someone please let me know which words are used for Baptism and Christening in the Dutch language localization of Gramps (or tell me where I can find these without having to actually install the Dutch language localization)?

 

Knowing these words may help me in making better informed decisions about when to use Baptism over Christening or vice versa.

 

Regards, Jk.


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Re: When to use Baptism and Christening and what records to base the decision on.

prculley
In reply to this post by John W. Kitz-3
A quick searh of the nl.po (translation file) shows the following:

#~ msgid "Baptism:"
#~ msgstr "Doopsel"

# Doping
#: ../gramps/gen/lib/eventtype.py:175
msgid "Christening"
msgstr "Doop"

# Doping
#: ../gramps/gen/lib/eventtype.py:167
msgid "Adult Christening"
msgstr "Volwassendoop"

Paul C.

On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 4:24 AM, John W. Kitz <[hidden email]> wrote:

All,

 

Thanks for your various points of view with respect to my question so far.

 

One of the factors that in hindsight may have contributed to me asking this question is that, although I prefer to use the English language version of Gramps, my (limited) knowledge of religious rites was mostly gained in a Dutch speaking environment in which the distinction between the various rites in terms of the words by which they are referred to is not always as clear as in the case of Baptism and Christening in those parts of the world in which English is the native language.

 

The various answers to my question therefore made me wonder; could someone please let me know which words are used for Baptism and Christening in the Dutch language localization of Gramps (or tell me where I can find these without having to actually install the Dutch language localization)?

 

Knowing these words may help me in making better informed decisions about when to use Baptism over Christening or vice versa.

 

Regards, Jk.


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Re: When to use Baptism and Christening and what records to base the decision on.

cbeerse@gmail.com
In reply to this post by John W. Kitz-3
Op 8-6-2017 om 11:24 schreef John W. Kitz:

All,

 

Thanks for your various points of view with respect to my question so far.

 

One of the factors that in hindsight may have contributed to me asking this question is that, although I prefer to use the English language version of Gramps, my (limited) knowledge of religious rites was mostly gained in a Dutch speaking environment in which the distinction between the various rites in terms of the words by which they are referred to is not always as clear as in the case of Baptism and Christening in those parts of the world in which English is the native language.

 

The various answers to my question therefore made me wonder; could someone please let me know which words are used for Baptism and Christening in the Dutch language localization of Gramps (or tell me where I can find these without having to actually install the Dutch language localization)?

 

Knowing these words may help me in making better informed decisions about when to use Baptism over Christening or vice versa.

 

Regards, Jk.


Sorry for my late reply.
At first I'd like to say there are more religions that use the term 'baptism' as in the event with the water. In dutch "doop"/"dopen" (translates to english as 'dipping' :-)
In the end, I'd like to say these events are religion specific..

From a religious point of view: Yes there is a difference between the two. I'd even say there are multiple forms of both baptism and christening: One of each for every religion that uses the term.

From my dutch roman katholic background, there are 3 of those moments:
In dutch: "Doop" (your baptism): The event with the water rouhgly after birth. Here the parens say to raise the child in respect with their religion.
In dutch: "Eerste Cummunie": This is at about 7 or 10 years old: You are now introduced in the religion, you can now fully follow all aspects.
In dutch: "Formsel" (your Christening?): THis is at about 12 or 14 years old: Yes I'm willing to fully becom a Katholic.
On the other hand, In dutch I also know 'doopsgezinden' (somehow related to Menonites I think). They only have an event at about 16 til 20 years old. They call it 'doop' (baptism) in which event they do something similar as the 3 katholic events in one.

So from a gramps-point of view, I'd like to say that baptism and christening are different and related to the religion.

Since grapms should be religion independent, they could/should allow for all different variants.


My 2 cents,
Corné Beerse



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