book reports and stuff like that

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Re: book reports and stuff like that

Duncan Lithgow
On Tue, 2006-06-13 at 18:55 -0700, Brian Matherly wrote:
>  
> I have personally been torn on this issue myself for some time. On the one hand, Gramps could take advantage of the power of ODT and add all kinds of neat features at the user's request. On the other hand, those features would be OOo specific and would not make sense for other formats.
>
> My current stance has been to leave the report interface generic and let the user customize the report themselves in OOo. The way I see it, it's not too difficult for the user to add the TOC, Index, Header and Footer after Gramps has put the data in the document. It only takes me about 2 minutes to do it myself.
>
> That's not to say I couldn't be persuaded.
I agree with your current approach, we should not add extra things by
default, remember my first RFE was just to make it possible for me to
make an index of names.

We should make sure that the ODT makes lots of cool things possible, but
not actually implementing them. Once it's working nicely I suggest we
write a guide for the manual which explains to people how to use these
features.

Duncan


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Re: book reports and stuff like that

Duncan Lithgow
In reply to this post by Richard Bos
On Wed, 2006-06-14 at 09:36 +0200, Richard Bos wrote:
> Op woensdag 14 juni 2006 03:55, schreef Brian Matherly:
> > I have personally been torn on this issue myself for some time. On the one
> > hand, Gramps could take advantage of the power of ODT and add all kinds of
> > neat features at the user's request. On the other hand, those features
> > would be OOo specific and would not make sense for other formats.
>
> Why is it OOo specific?  I mean ODT is used by many word processors nowadays,
> from that point of view it is not OOo specific.
Your right, it's ODT specific note OOo specific. But it's only being
tested with OOo.

Duncan


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Re: book reports and stuff like that

Duncan Lithgow
In reply to this post by Brian Matherly
On Tue, 2006-06-13 at 18:44 -0700, Brian Matherly wrote:

> >> In OOo I can embed a mark by each title without changing
> >> the style associated with it. When generating a TOC, you
> >> can choose to have it based on the style, or to look for marks.
> >> If I embed the marks with each report title, you could make
> >> the TOC based on those marks, but you would still have to
> >> enter the chapter information manually.
> >>
> >> Do you think this would work for you?
>
> >I don't think I understand how this looks or works, do you have a file I
> >can look at?
>
> I have attached a file. There is a TOC at the begining and an index at the end. Gramps does not generate the TOC or index. I added them based on the instructions on the wiki. Gramps embeds the "marks" in the document. The marks are visible as a grey box before each name and title.
>
> I hope this clears things up.
Looks great, thanks for making that work. I can't find a way of getting automatic chapter numbers working. I want those so I can reference chapters instead of pages in the names index. I'm not sure why, I've never used those index marks before.

Duncan


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Re: book reports and stuff like that

Brian Matherly
In reply to this post by Richard Bos
>Op woensdag 14 juni 2006 03:55, schreef Brian Matherly:
>> I have personally been torn on this issue myself for some time. On the one
>> hand, Gramps could take advantage of the power of ODT and add all kinds of
>> neat features at the user's request. On the other hand, those features
>> would be OOo specific and would not make sense for other formats.
>
>Why is it OOo specific?  I mean ODT is used by many word processors nowadays,  
>from that point of view it is not OOo specific.
 
>Richard Bos
 
Have you tried ODT with those other word processors? In my experience, the support is pretty lame.
 
But yes, you are technically correct. It would be ODT specitic. The features would not be supported by the other formats that gramps can export to: pdf, text, rtf, lpr, ps, kword, abiword.
 
~Brian
 
 




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Re: book reports and stuff like that

Brian Matherly
In reply to this post by Duncan Lithgow
>I agree with your current approach, we should not add extra things by
>default, remember my first RFE was just to make it possible for me to
>make an index of names.
>
>We should make sure that the ODT makes lots of cool things possible, but
>not actually implementing them. Once it's working nicely I suggest we
>write a guide for the manual which explains to people how to use these
>features.
>
>Duncan


That has been exactly my approach. I started a guide on the wiki: http://developers.gramps-project.org/tiki-index.php?page=TocIndexTutorial (login to see the images).
I hope that eventually this guide and others will become part of the manual.

~Brian





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Re: book reports and stuff like that

Brian Matherly
In reply to this post by Duncan Lithgow
> I can't find a way of getting automatic chapter numbers working.  
> I want those so I can reference chapters instead of pages in the names index.
 
If you figure it out, let me know and I'll see if I can incorporate it into what we have now.
 
~Brian
 




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Re: book reports and stuff like that

Richard Bos
In reply to this post by Brian Matherly
Op woensdag 14 juni 2006 14:45, schreef Brian Matherly:
> >Richard Bos
>
>  
> Have you tried ODT with those other word processors? In my experience, the
> support is pretty lame.

I have used kword with ODT.  I think it does a pretty good job.  Besides that
one of the lead developers is an important member of the ODT foundation.

> But yes, you are technically correct. It would be ODT specitic. The
> features would not be supported by the other formats that gramps can export
> to: pdf, text, rtf, lpr, ps, kword, abiword.

The latter 2 (kword and abiword) is no problem nowadays, as they can read ODT.  
Same is valid for pdf, text, etc as for example ODT can be read in with
OpenOffice which can convert to other formats....
To my opinion gramps should jst concentrate on ODT and abandon the rest as
other more specialized tools can do the conversion to another format.

--
Richard Bos
Without a home the journey is endless


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Re: book reports and stuff like that

Eero Tamminen-3
Hi,

On Wednesday 14 June 2006 21:42, Richard Bos wrote:

> > Have you tried ODT with those other word processors? In my experience,
> > the support is pretty lame.
>
> I have used kword with ODT.  I think it does a pretty good job.  Besides
> that one of the lead developers is an important member of the ODT
> foundation.
>
> > But yes, you are technically correct. It would be ODT specitic. The
> > features would not be supported by the other formats that gramps can
> > export to: pdf, text, rtf, lpr, ps, kword, abiword.

RTF is needed if one would e.g. want to transfer docs with people who have
old Windows machines (OpenOffice2 doesn't even install on them I think).


> The latter 2 (kword and abiword) is no problem nowadays, as they can read
> ODT. Same is valid for pdf, text, etc as for example ODT can be read in
> with OpenOffice which can convert to other formats....
> To my opinion gramps should jst concentrate on ODT and abandon the rest
> as other more specialized tools can do the conversion to another format.

On low end machines (e.g. OLPC) OpenOffice is a really painful way to get
PDF out of Gramps, it takes so much more disk space memory and is slower
than AbiWord or KWord. :-)

Happily gnome-print can generate PDF.   However, gnome-print won't be
available for Gramp Windows port, but I guess one can use there either
ODT or RTF.


        - Eero


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Re: book reports and stuff like that

Don Allingham
Eero Tamminen wrote:
>
> Happily gnome-print can generate PDF.   However, gnome-print won't be
> available for Gramp Windows port, but I guess one can use there either
> ODT or RTF.
>

The next release of gtk should have the print function moved into it,
instead of relying on gnome-print. Of course, we would need python
bindings and a rewrite of our interface code to use it, but this is
something we will probably do at some point.

Don


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Re: book reports and stuff like that

Alex Roitman
In reply to this post by Richard Bos
On Wed, 2006-06-14 at 20:42 +0200, Richard Bos wrote:

> Op woensdag 14 juni 2006 14:45, schreef Brian Matherly:
> > But yes, you are technically correct. It would be ODT specitic. The
> > features would not be supported by the other formats that gramps can export
> > to: pdf, text, rtf, lpr, ps, kword, abiword.
>
> The latter 2 (kword and abiword) is no problem nowadays, as they can read ODT.  
> Same is valid for pdf, text, etc as for example ODT can be read in with
> OpenOffice which can convert to other formats....
> To my opinion gramps should jst concentrate on ODT and abandon the rest as
> other more specialized tools can do the conversion to another format.
I am not sure we want to do that. I agree that we can drop kword and abw
formats in favor of ODT. Not sure about HTML and LaTeX and Print...
and TXT and PDF. All of these are open and documented, just like
the ODT.

Each has its own advantage. E.g. TXT is a nice quick way to get
basic data, with not so bad formatting. Not something to present
at a family union, but definitely something to use in your research.

Alex

--
Alexander Roitman   http://www.gramps-project.org


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Re: book reports and stuff like that

Duncan Lithgow
On Thu, 2006-06-15 at 10:48 -0700, Alex Roitman wrote:
> I am not sure we want to do that. I agree that we can drop kword and abw
> formats in favor of ODT. Not sure about

> HTML
HTML from OOo is not as bad as from MS Word, but it's still very bloated
- so I agree that we should continue to support HTML.

>  and LaTeX
Not that I know anything about it, but OOo doesn't seem able to export
to this. So we need that too.

>  and Print...
Not sure about that. If someone has a system which can run gramps don't
they also have a system able to open and print from one of the other
formats?

> and TXT
TXT is a must, I use it for texts I want to add inside emails for
editing, layout is a bit rough, but that's life. Basically what Alex
said.

> and PDF.
Given that PDF isn't really editable in any easy way, and it's likely to
stay that way I understand, is PDF really so important? I mean the
reports cannot be refined at all, which makes them rather poor reading.

>  All of these are open and documented,
Just because we _can_ doesn't mean people _should_ spend time on
supporting less useful formats - in my view.

Duncan



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Re: book reports and stuff like that

bm-7

>>  and LaTeX
> Not that I know anything about it, but OOo doesn't seem able to export
> to this. So we need that too.

TeX is a professional type-setting format. From TeX you make dvi, ps, html or
pdf format for publication. Index, automatic numberering, table of
contents are
all accessible with easy commands, so what is now done with ODT, can easily be
done in the TeX output, with same options.

>> and PDF.
> Given that PDF isn't really editable in any easy way, and it's likely to
> stay that way I understand, is PDF really so important? I mean the
> reports cannot be refined at all, which makes them rather poor reading.

An option is that pdf is just the pdf following from TeX, and not self
implemented (it might be like that now, I don't recall now). So it is fully
refinable if you tinker with the TeX and recompile it to get PDF. For the home
user not knowing TeX, having an option PDF that makes the PDF from the TeX is
just a command "pdflatex file.tex" away, so no extra effort to present it to
the user.

>
>>  All of these are open and documented,
> Just because we _can_ doesn't mean people _should_ spend time on
> supporting less useful formats - in my view.

I am sure if easily supported formats are taken away, some users will be
annoyed. If I make a booklet, TeX would be my preferred choice.

Benny

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