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compound surnames (portuguese)

Graham Seaman
After doing some of my  own family, I thought I'd start a new database
for my wife's family. She's Portuguese, and they have a different
surname system from the English one: everyone has two surnames. The
first surname is the mother's second surname, and the second surname is
the father's second surname. All the children of a marriage have the
same pair of surnames. If a daughter marries, she drops the first
surname but keeps the second, and adds her husband's second surname at
the end, which is the same pair of names her children will get. So for
example my surname is Seaman, my wife's mother's surnames were  de Jesus
Soares and her father's are Rodrigues de Sousa,  so her surname before
marriage was  Soares de Sousa (de Sousa is a single surname..), but she
is now de Sousa Seaman, same as our children.

Can I fit this pattern with the underlying database in Gramps? Or does
anyone know of any genealogy systems geared to this type of surname pattern?

Thanks
Graham




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Re: compound surnames (portuguese)

lcc  -2
What you describe is a common pattern in portuguese naming but many
of the statements you made are not true. First of all "everyone has two surnames"
should be "everyone has at least two surnames". Having four surnames is common
in Portugal and Brazil. What is called "compound surname" is actually when two
words are combined in a single surname and this is carried on usually in the male line.
For instance

1 João de Lima e Silva
11 Fernando de Lima e Silva
111 Joaquim de Lima e Silva

"All the children of a marriage have the same pair of surnames." Not true. When you
go further in your investigation you might find large families where every sibling has
a different combination of surnames. Surnames often pass through the female line too
and can come from grandparents or distant forefathers.

"If a daughter marries, she drops the first surname but keeps the second, and adds her
husband's second surname at the end, which is the same pair of names her children will get."
This is a common pattern but it seems nowadays women are keeping their full birth names
 and just adding the husband's name.

As for your question, you shouldn't have trouble dealing with this in GRAMPS. There
are many ways. A real "compound surname" can be entered in the surname field. Otherwise
you can use the male line surname in the surname field and put the female line one as part
of the name. There are still other ways of dealing with it.

Regards
--
lcc

---
Graham Seaman wrote:

 After doing some of my  own family, I thought I'd start a new database
for my wife's family. She's Portuguese, and they have a different
surname system from the English one: everyone has two surnames. The
first surname is the mother's second surname, and the second surname is
the father's second surname. All the children of a marriage have the
same pair of surnames. If a daughter marries, she drops the first
surname but keeps the second, and adds her husband's second surname at
the end, which is the same pair of names her children will get. So for
example my surname is Seaman, my wife's mother's surnames were  de Jesus
Soares and her father's are Rodrigues de Sousa,  so her surname before
marriage was  Soares de Sousa (de Sousa is a single surname..), but she
is now de Sousa Seaman, same as our children.

Can I fit this pattern with the underlying database in Gramps? Or does
anyone know of any genealogy systems geared to this type of surname pattern?

Thanks
Graham

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Re: compound surnames (portuguese)

Graham Seaman
lcc wrote:

<snipping helpful info>

> As for your question, you shouldn't have trouble dealing with this in
> GRAMPS. There
> are many ways. A real "compound surname" can be entered in the surname
> field. Otherwise
> you can use the male line surname in the surname field and put the
> female line one as part
> of the name. There are still other ways of dealing with it.

So what are the other ways? I don't much like putting part of the
surname in the name field, which is also what most uk computer forms
force you to do.

Best
Graham


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Re: compound surnames (portuguese)

lcc  -2
In reply to this post by Graham Seaman
I think you can use the "patronymic" field for part of the surname.
That's probably best. If you use part of the surname in the name field
you can also define a "call name" with only the first names and have
reports use them. Maybe others will have other suggestions.

Best
lcc

On Thu, 07/30/2009 at 10:28am, "graham" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> lcc wrote:
>
> <snipping helpful info>
>
>> As for your question, you shouldn't have trouble dealing with this in
>> GRAMPS. There
>> are many ways. A real "compound surname" can be entered in the surname
>> field. Otherwise
>> you can use the male line surname in the surname field and put the
>> female line one as part
>> of the name. There are still other ways of dealing with it.
>
> So what are the other ways? I don't much like putting part of the
> surname in the name field, which is also what most uk computer forms
> force you to do.
>
> Best
> Graham
>
>
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Re: compound surnames (portuguese)

Frederico Munoz
In reply to this post by Graham Seaman
Hi,

Just to add to what lcc already said.

2009/7/29 Graham Seaman <[hidden email]>:
> After doing some of my  own family, I thought I'd start a new database
> for my wife's family. She's Portuguese, and they have a different
> surname system from the English one: everyone has two surnames.

Nowadays this is true, everyone has *at least* two surnames. I never
thought of the "Portuguese system" as a, well, "system" in itself. IMO
it isn't any different from most of the other European systems
(unlike, say, the Spanish one with the "inversion" of the surnames,
etc).

> The
> first surname is the mother's second surname, and the second surname is
> the father's second surname. All the children of a marriage have the
> same pair of surnames.

This is in general true, bear in mind though that I know siblings with
different surnames (especially if the female surname would "die" and
there are other male siblings, etc). Also, and especially important,
is that this is a very "modern" thing. You only need to reach the XIX
century to see that the overwhelming majority of the population only
has one or two surnames, some of them seemingly random in origin (from
the father mostly, but some from one of the grandparents, and some
even patronymic). The "multiplication" of surnames is recent and is
mainly due to the "importing" of an aristocratic naming scheme by all
the classes.

> If a daughter marries, she drops the first
> surname but keeps the second, and adds her husband's second surname at
> the end, which is the same pair of names her children will get.

Not in general at least today... there is no provision for "dropping"
surnames I think. What happens is that the wife adds the surname of
the husband to her own surnames. Bear in mind that legally both wife
and husband can add one or more surnames and put it anywhere they
want. In practice though the custom is the general one, wife adds the
surname of the husband.

> So for
> example my surname is Seaman, my wife's mother's surnames were  de Jesus
> Soares and her father's are Rodrigues de Sousa,  so her surname before
> marriage was  Soares de Sousa (de Sousa is a single surname..), but she
> is now de Sousa Seaman, same as our children.

Makes sense. The male surname is in general the one that survives each
generation. As a rule a person with two surnames got them from both
grandfather's.

> Can I fit this pattern with the underlying database in Gramps? Or does
> anyone know of any genealogy systems geared to this type of surname pattern?

A good deal of my tree is Portuguese (at least 70%) and I never had
any trouble in fitting this "pattern" in GRAMPS, it is actually my
Spanish ancestry that requires some fiddling.

There is only one Surname to keep track of: the very last one. The
rest can be perfectly kept inside the name field... to be quite honest
I don't think there is another way to do it; I understand that the
apparent linearity of the system could be perhaps better served by
some kind of multiple entry fields to indicate which surname came from
which grandparent, but this would be overkill IMO. While it can be
perceived as being a "cleaner" way the fact is that in Portugal (and
in Brazil I suppose) there is no provision at all for this kind of
classification, so it is not something that people see as a "system".
As an example my driver's licence only contains "Muñoz" in the surname
field, the rest is in the name. My ID card on the other hand has only
my given name in one field and all my surnames in another. Mostly
though it is the last surname that people consider *the* surname.

I understand that this might seem strange since you're putting a
"surname" in the "name" field, but it is what makes most sense in my
eyes. Putting them in the surname field would mean that each
generation "new" unique surnames would appear. You could use the
"group as" function to, say, group both "Henriques de Castro" and
"Pereira de Castro" under a common "Castro" surname as an alternative.
Using patronymic or call names is also a possibility although a bit of
a kludge (since it means disregarding what the fields actually mean).

Regards,

Frederico

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Re: compound surnames (portuguese)

Benny Malengier
2009/8/3 Frederico Muñoz <[hidden email]>:

> Hi,
>
> Just to add to what lcc already said.
>
> 2009/7/29 Graham Seaman <[hidden email]>:
>> After doing some of my  own family, I thought I'd start a new database
>> for my wife's family. She's Portuguese, and they have a different
>> surname system from the English one: everyone has two surnames.
>
> Nowadays this is true, everyone has *at least* two surnames. I never
> thought of the "Portuguese system" as a, well, "system" in itself. IMO
> it isn't any different from most of the other European systems
> (unlike, say, the Spanish one with the "inversion" of the surnames,
> etc).
>
>> The
>> first surname is the mother's second surname, and the second surname is
>> the father's second surname. All the children of a marriage have the
>> same pair of surnames.
>
> This is in general true, bear in mind though that I know siblings with
> different surnames (especially if the female surname would "die" and
> there are other male siblings, etc). Also, and especially important,
> is that this is a very "modern" thing. You only need to reach the XIX
> century to see that the overwhelming majority of the population only
> has one or two surnames, some of them seemingly random in origin (from
> the father mostly, but some from one of the grandparents, and some
> even patronymic). The "multiplication" of surnames is recent and is
> mainly due to the "importing" of an aristocratic naming scheme by all
> the classes.
>
>> If a daughter marries, she drops the first
>> surname but keeps the second, and adds her husband's second surname at
>> the end, which is the same pair of names her children will get.
>
> Not in general at least today... there is no provision for "dropping"
> surnames I think. What happens is that the wife adds the surname of
> the husband to her own surnames. Bear in mind that legally both wife
> and husband can add one or more surnames and put it anywhere they
> want. In practice though the custom is the general one, wife adds the
> surname of the husband.
>
>> So for
>> example my surname is Seaman, my wife's mother's surnames were  de Jesus
>> Soares and her father's are Rodrigues de Sousa,  so her surname before
>> marriage was  Soares de Sousa (de Sousa is a single surname..), but she
>> is now de Sousa Seaman, same as our children.
>
> Makes sense. The male surname is in general the one that survives each
> generation. As a rule a person with two surnames got them from both
> grandfather's.
>
>> Can I fit this pattern with the underlying database in Gramps? Or does
>> anyone know of any genealogy systems geared to this type of surname pattern?
>
> A good deal of my tree is Portuguese (at least 70%) and I never had
> any trouble in fitting this "pattern" in GRAMPS, it is actually my
> Spanish ancestry that requires some fiddling.
>
> There is only one Surname to keep track of: the very last one. The
> rest can be perfectly kept inside the name field... to be quite honest
> I don't think there is another way to do it; I understand that the
> apparent linearity of the system could be perhaps better served by
> some kind of multiple entry fields to indicate which surname came from
> which grandparent, but this would be overkill IMO. While it can be
> perceived as being a "cleaner" way the fact is that in Portugal (and
> in Brazil I suppose) there is no provision at all for this kind of
> classification, so it is not something that people see as a "system".
> As an example my driver's licence only contains "Muñoz" in the surname
> field, the rest is in the name. My ID card on the other hand has only
> my given name in one field and all my surnames in another. Mostly
> though it is the last surname that people consider *the* surname.
>
> I understand that this might seem strange since you're putting a
> "surname" in the "name" field, but it is what makes most sense in my
> eyes. Putting them in the surname field would mean that each
> generation "new" unique surnames would appear. You could use the
> "group as" function to, say, group both "Henriques de Castro" and
> "Pereira de Castro" under a common "Castro" surname as an alternative.
> Using patronymic or call names is also a possibility although a bit of
> a kludge (since it means disregarding what the fields actually mean).

I would expect you then use the callname to indicate the used first name.
In the case of a woman  Jane Mathilde Soares de Sousa, it would be
Type: birth name
First name: Jane Mathilde Soares
Callname: Jane
Family name: de Sousa

So she is grouped under the 'de Sousa' family name
and a second name:
Type: married name
First name : Jane Mathilde de Sousa
Callname: Jane
Family name: Seaman

Using the Group as feature more extensively, it would be instead:

Type: birth name
First name: Jane Mathilde
Callname: Jane
Family name: Soares de Sousa
Group as: de Sousa

So she is grouped again under the 'de Sousa' family name
and a second name:
Type: married name
First name : Jane Mathilde
Callname: Jane
Family name: de Sousa Seaman
Group as: Seaman

As a western European I would go for the second scheme I think, but if
a Southern European genealogist says scheme 1 is good, then that
should carry more weight :-)

Graham, do read carefully:
http://www.gramps-project.org/wiki/index.php?title=Gramps_3.1_Wiki_Manual_-_Entering_and_Editing_Data:_Detailed_-_part_1#Preferred_name_section
and
http://www.gramps-project.org/wiki/index.php?title=Gramps_3.1_Wiki_Manual_-_Entering_and_Editing_Data:_Detailed_-_part_3#Name_Editor

Benny

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Re: compound surnames (portuguese)

Frederico Munoz
Hi,

2009/8/10 Benny Malengier <[hidden email]>:
> I would expect you then use the callname to indicate the used first name.
> In the case of a woman  Jane Mathilde Soares de Sousa, it would be
> Type: birth name
> First name: Jane Mathilde Soares
> Callname: Jane
> Family name: de Sousa

Perhaps... we don't general have the concept of "call name", merely of
first name and surnames. One exception being, and the one that I think
more closely follows the intente of callname, first name combinations
like "Ana Filipa" (Ana being a rather common name) in which some
people go by "Filipa". These are "compound first names" which are very
common and generally when asked for their name people will reply "Ana
Filipa" (whereas I will simply reply Frederico).


> So she is grouped under the 'de Sousa' family name
> and a second name:
> Type: married name
> First name : Jane Mathilde de Sousa
> Callname: Jane
> Family name: Seaman

Yes, if (like me) you're using the maiden name. I always use the last
surname as the grouping name, to the point were I don't actually use
the grouping feature (except for alternative spellings).


> Using the Group as feature more extensively, it would be instead:
>
> Type: birth name
> First name: Jane Mathilde
> Callname: Jane
> Family name: Soares de Sousa
> Group as: de Sousa
>
> So she is grouped again under the 'de Sousa' family name
> and a second name:
> Type: married name
> First name : Jane Mathilde
> Callname: Jane
> Family name: de Sousa Seaman
> Group as: Seaman

This was my second option above, although it honestly looks like to
much trouble and not really tied to how we perceive surnames around
here. In general - and with the exception of holders of titles, etc. -
the family names are not viewed in those terms, only the last name is
used, there is no special allowance for coupling the last surnames as
a unit. E.g. the sibling of Jane Seaman would always be considered
first and foremost a Seaman, etc.


> As a western European I would go for the second scheme I think, but if
> a Southern European genealogist says scheme 1 is good, then that
> should carry more weight :-)

Well, this is not even a Southern European thing AFAIK ;)... perhaps
Iberian in the way that the surnames of the mother and father are used
(and then again with differences between Portugal and Spain in what
regards the order of the names), and as I said it is not exactly
codified, and it isn't even some ancient tradition. I only have 3
names (first name, surname of mother, surname of father), some people
have around 6 names (two first names, the two surnames of the mother,
the two surnames of the father), some something in between, etc.

I understand that perhaps this sounds a bit weird to those used to
"anglo-saxon" (for lack of a better word) naming schemes. In the end
though I can say that the general practice is to only consider the
last surname as the "family name", and this is how it is used e.g. in
the Army, in surname ordered admission listings, etc. However I do
agree that both approaches are possible, and if the second one somehow
feels more natural to the person doing the entry go for it :) Just be
prepared to have to adapt it severely once your investigation reaches
2 generations (or to put it better, be prepared to come up with
something that will apply when this apparently "neat" ordering of
names doesn't exist).

Regards,

Frederico

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Re: compound surnames (portuguese)

lcc  -2
In reply to this post by Graham Seaman
I think using the "patronymic" field would be interesting. Maybe there
could be a name change for this field, from "patronymic" to "middle name"
which is more general.

--lcc

On Mon, 08/10/2009 at 12:07pm, "Frederico Muñoz" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> 2009/8/10 Benny Malengier <[hidden email]>:
>> I would expect you then use the callname to indicate the used first name.
>> In the case of a woman  Jane Mathilde Soares de Sousa, it would be
>> Type: birth name
>> First name: Jane Mathilde Soares
>> Callname: Jane
>> Family name: de Sousa
>
> Perhaps... we don't general have the concept of "call name", merely of
> first name and surnames. One exception being, and the one that I think
> more closely follows the intente of callname, first name combinations
> like "Ana Filipa" (Ana being a rather common name) in which some
> people go by "Filipa". These are "compound first names" which are very
> common and generally when asked for their name people will reply "Ana
> Filipa" (whereas I will simply reply Frederico).
>
>
>> So she is grouped under the 'de Sousa' family name
>> and a second name:
>> Type: married name
>> First name : Jane Mathilde de Sousa
>> Callname: Jane
>> Family name: Seaman
>
> Yes, if (like me) you're using the maiden name. I always use the last
> surname as the grouping name, to the point were I don't actually use
> the grouping feature (except for alternative spellings).
>
>
>> Using the Group as feature more extensively, it would be instead:
>>
>> Type: birth name
>> First name: Jane Mathilde
>> Callname: Jane
>> Family name: Soares de Sousa
>> Group as: de Sousa
>>
>> So she is grouped again under the 'de Sousa' family name
>> and a second name:
>> Type: married name
>> First name : Jane Mathilde
>> Callname: Jane
>> Family name: de Sousa Seaman
>> Group as: Seaman
>
> This was my second option above, although it honestly looks like to
> much trouble and not really tied to how we perceive surnames around
> here. In general - and with the exception of holders of titles, etc. -
> the family names are not viewed in those terms, only the last name is
> used, there is no special allowance for coupling the last surnames as
> a unit. E.g. the sibling of Jane Seaman would always be considered
> first and foremost a Seaman, etc.
>
>
>> As a western European I would go for the second scheme I think, but if
>> a Southern European genealogist says scheme 1 is good, then that
>> should carry more weight :-)
>
> Well, this is not even a Southern European thing AFAIK ;)... perhaps
> Iberian in the way that the surnames of the mother and father are used
> (and then again with differences between Portugal and Spain in what
> regards the order of the names), and as I said it is not exactly
> codified, and it isn't even some ancient tradition. I only have 3
> names (first name, surname of mother, surname of father), some people
> have around 6 names (two first names, the two surnames of the mother,
> the two surnames of the father), some something in between, etc.
>
> I understand that perhaps this sounds a bit weird to those used to
> "anglo-saxon" (for lack of a better word) naming schemes. In the end
> though I can say that the general practice is to only consider the
> last surname as the "family name", and this is how it is used e.g. in
> the Army, in surname ordered admission listings, etc. However I do
> agree that both approaches are possible, and if the second one somehow
> feels more natural to the person doing the entry go for it :) Just be
> prepared to have to adapt it severely once your investigation reaches
> 2 generations (or to put it better, be prepared to come up with
> something that will apply when this apparently "neat" ordering of
> names doesn't exist).
>
> Regards,
>
> Frederico
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with
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Re: compound surnames (portuguese)

Frederico Munoz
Hi,

2009/8/10 lcc <[hidden email]>:
> I think using the "patronymic" field would be interesting. Maybe there
> could be a name change for this field, from "patronymic" to "middle name"
> which is more general.

This would be an option, although IMO only sensible with a name change
(i.e. "middle name"). Especially since once you reach the XVIII/XIX
century "real" patronymics are used in Portugal (e.g. "João Fernandes"
-> João, son of Fernando Henriques -> Fernando, son of Henrique
Gonçalves -> ad nauseam).

I tend to only use the "call name" and "patronymic" when they strictly
make sense. This is only my way of dealing with it, it is perfectly
natural to adapt the existing fields to other uses. I tend to stray
away from that route solely because I do not think that it scales well
and could introduce some disparities in reports, etc.

I would like to hear from other GRAMPers about the way that names and
surnames are used in their countries. I know that in Northern Europe
it is apparently common to have only the surname of the father, plus
the first name/second name/call name components. I have also seen this
in France, although I sometimes have encountered really long French
names with lots of surnames. I wonder how it is in, say, Slavic
countries, Greece, Italy, etc.

Regards,

Frederico

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Re: compound surnames (portuguese)

Vlada Peric
On Mon, Aug 10, 2009 at 7:23 PM, Frederico Muñoz<[hidden email]> wrote:
> names with lots of surnames. I wonder how it is in, say, Slavic
> countries, Greece, Italy, etc.
>

Well, in Serbia you have a first name and a surname. If you're female,
you take your husbands surname; alternatively, you could add it to
your own (ie. Đukić-Dejanović), but that is rarer. However, if you go
back 200 or so years, it was common to form the surname based on your
fathers name (ie. Marković - son of Marko), and females always took
their husbands surname. This tradition was changed by a degree of Knez
Miloš Obilić (or his successor) in the early 1800. Other regional
countries work mostly the same way, though for example the practice of
using patronymics held out longer in some parts - Montenegro, Bulgaria
(AFAIK), and south/southeastern parts of Serbia. That's basically it
for the Southern Slavic nations. I do know the Russians have a middle
name based on their fathers name, but that's about the limit of my
knowledge.

Of note is that some people choose to change their name. In my tree,
for example, one person took the last name "Cvetković", based on his
grandfather (named Cvetko), even though his father's last name was
Perić. Some people also change their last names to sound more
"Serbian" (ie. Markov -> Marković -- Serbian last names tend to end in
-ić), but both of these occurrences are very, very rare.

In GRAMPS, I don't use the patronymic field and instead use the last
name field always. I feel that GRAMPS is more designed for the Russian
use case (where you have both a permanent surname and a name based on
your father) rather than the one here, where you only have one surname
(which might be based on your fathers name).
--
Vlada Perić

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Re: compound surnames (portuguese)

lcc  -2
In reply to this post by Graham Seaman
Well in that case then it seems it wouldn't be a problem to change
from "patronymic" to "middle name". Since the Russian patronymic is
always a middle name.

--lcc

On Mon, 08/10/2009 at 4:26pm, "Vlada Peric" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 10, 2009 at 7:23 PM, Frederico Muñoz<[hidden email]> wrote:
>> names with lots of surnames. I wonder how it is in, say, Slavic
>> countries, Greece, Italy, etc.

> Well, in Serbia you have a first name and a surname. If you're female,
> you take your husbands surname; alternatively, you could add it to
> your own (ie. Đukić-Dejanović), but that is rarer. However, if you go
> back 200 or so years, it was common to form the surname based on your
> fathers name (ie. Marković - son of Marko), and females always took
> their husbands surname. This tradition was changed by a degree of Knez
> Miloš Obilić (or his successor) in the early 1800. Other regional
> countries work mostly the same way, though for example the practice of
> using patronymics held out longer in some parts - Montenegro, Bulgaria
> (AFAIK), and south/southeastern parts of Serbia. That's basically it
> for the Southern Slavic nations. I do know the Russians have a middle
> name based on their fathers name, but that's about the limit of my
> knowledge.

> Of note is that some people choose to change their name. In my tree,
> for example, one person took the last name "Cvetković", based on his
> grandfather (named Cvetko), even though his father's last name was
> Perić. Some people also change their last names to sound more
> "Serbian" (ie. Markov -> Marković -- Serbian last names tend to end in
> -ić), but both of these occurrences are very, very rare.

> In GRAMPS, I don't use the patronymic field and instead use the last
> name field always. I feel that GRAMPS is more designed for the Russian
> use case (where you have both a permanent surname and a name based on
> your father) rather than the one here, where you only have one surname
> (which might be based on your fathers name).
> --
> Vlada Perić

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> on
> what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with
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