european female surnames ending in 'ova'

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european female surnames ending in 'ova'

executive
In the Czech Republic (and other slavic countries), we have gender specific
last names. For females, we usually add an 'ova' suffix to the surname. For
example, if John Smith has a daughter named Jane, she is Jane Smithova. And
if Jane marries Peter Jones, she becomes Jane Jonesova. When I tried
entering this suffix into Gramps, it just made a mess of things (duplicate
families and so on). Is there a way to enter this Gramps while maintaining
proper relationship structure and consistency? Thanks.



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Re: european female surnames ending in 'ova'

John W. Kitz-3
Executive,

On 2017-12-08 22:48, executive wrote:
> In the Czech Republic (and other slavic countries), we have gender
> specific
> last names. For females, we usually add an 'ova' suffix to the surname.
> For
> example, if John Smith has a daughter named Jane, she is Jane Smithova.
> And
> if Jane marries Peter Jones, she becomes Jane Jonesova. When I tried
> entering this suffix into Gramps,

To allow someone to try and answer your question could you be more
specific as to in which field you entered what you refer to as the
suffix 'ova'?

> it just made a mess of things (duplicate
> families and so on). Is there a way to enter this Gramps while
> maintaining
> proper relationship structure and consistency? Thanks.

Regards, Jk.

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Re: european female surnames ending in 'ova'

John W. Kitz-3
Executive,

On 2017-12-08 22:57, John W. Kitz wrote:

> Executive,
>
> On 2017-12-08 22:48, executive wrote:
>> In the Czech Republic (and other slavic countries), we have gender
>> specific
>> last names. For females, we usually add an 'ova' suffix to the
>> surname. For
>> example, if John Smith has a daughter named Jane, she is Jane
>> Smithova. And
>> if Jane marries Peter Jones, she becomes Jane Jonesova.

In addition and looking at this article[1] on patronymic names in
several Slavic countries providing an example other than the one above,
in which you used the typically patrilineal last name Smith, might help.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patronymic#Bulgarian

>> When I tried
>> entering this suffix into Gramps,
>
> To allow someone to try and answer your question could you be more
> specific as to in which field you entered what you refer to as the
> suffix 'ova'?
>
>> it just made a mess of things (duplicate
>> families and so on). Is there a way to enter this Gramps while
>> maintaining
>> proper relationship structure and consistency? Thanks.

Regards, Jk.

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Re: european female surnames ending in 'ova'

Nick Hall
In reply to this post by executive
On 08/12/17 21:48, executive wrote:
> In the Czech Republic (and other slavic countries), we have gender specific
> last names. For females, we usually add an 'ova' suffix to the surname. For
> example, if John Smith has a daughter named Jane, she is Jane Smithova. And
> if Jane marries Peter Jones, she becomes Jane Jonesova. When I tried
> entering this suffix into Gramps, it just made a mess of things (duplicate
> families and so on). Is there a way to enter this Gramps while maintaining
> proper relationship structure and consistency? Thanks.
>
Use the "Group As" field in the name editor.  Read the following section
of the documentation:

https://gramps-project.org/wiki/index.php?title=Gramps_4.2_Wiki_Manual_-_Entering_and_editing_data:_detailed_-_part_3#General

Nick.



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Re: european female surnames ending in 'ova'

Per Starbäck
John W. Kitz wrote:
> In addition and looking at this article[1] on patronymic names in several
> Slavic countries providing an example other than the one above, in which you
> used the typically patrilineal last name Smith, might help.

It would have been better with actual examples, but I don't think this
is about patronymic names. Even patrilineal last names can have
different forms for different genders. For example

Nick Hall wrote:
> Use the "Group As" field in the name editor.  Read the following section of the documentation:

Great! Then I think a good feature would be if a name belonging to a
group could be set to be the default female version. Then when
entering children to a Tolstoy (for example) Gramps could know that
the daughters should get Tolstoya by default. (But it's a bit more
complicated than that to fix, since Gramps now fills in a default
surname when possible before it knows the gender of it.)


2017-12-08 23:15 GMT+01:00 Nick Hall <[hidden email]>:

> On 08/12/17 21:48, executive wrote:
>>
>> In the Czech Republic (and other slavic countries), we have gender
>> specific
>> last names. For females, we usually add an 'ova' suffix to the surname.
>> For
>> example, if John Smith has a daughter named Jane, she is Jane Smithova.
>> And
>> if Jane marries Peter Jones, she becomes Jane Jonesova. When I tried
>> entering this suffix into Gramps, it just made a mess of things (duplicate
>> families and so on). Is there a way to enter this Gramps while maintaining
>> proper relationship structure and consistency? Thanks.
>>
> Use the "Group As" field in the name editor.  Read the following section of
> the documentation:
>
> https://gramps-project.org/wiki/index.php?title=Gramps_4.2_Wiki_Manual_-_Entering_and_editing_data:_detailed_-_part_3#General
>
> Nick.
>
>
>
>
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Re: european female surnames ending in 'ova'

executive
In reply to this post by Nick Hall
Per, I thought I gave an example, but I will give you more. Consider the
greatest female Czech tennis player of all time, Martina Navratilova.
Father/Coach: Miroslav Navratil. I'm sure you've heard of Madeleine
Albright, born Marie Korbelova in Prague, to Josef Korbel. However, the
exact female form can vary slightly depending on the last letters in the
male form, ex. Stastny/Stastna.

Thank you, Nick. I think name grouping solved it, as it allows the feminine
and masculine version of the family surname to be considered the same. It's
a little bit tedious having to do it each time for each name, rather than
setting general rules, but thankfully my tree isn't that large.

John, I was entering the entire name (ex. "Navratilova") into the surname
field. We don't use the middle patronymic name system. Usually, just two
names - nice and simple :)




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Re: european female surnames ending in 'ova'

John W. Kitz-3
In reply to this post by John W. Kitz-3
Executive,

On 2017-12-08 23:11, John W. Kitz wrote:

> Executive,
>
> On 2017-12-08 22:57, John W. Kitz wrote:
>> Executive,
>>
>> On 2017-12-08 22:48, executive wrote:
>>> In the Czech Republic (and other slavic countries), we have gender
>>> specific
>>> last names. For females, we usually add an 'ova' suffix to the
>>> surname. For
>>> example, if John Smith has a daughter named Jane, she is Jane
>>> Smithova. And
>>> if Jane marries Peter Jones, she becomes Jane Jonesova.
>
> In addition and looking at this article[1] on patronymic names in
> several Slavic countries providing an example other than the one
> above, in which you used the typically patrilineal last name Smith,
> might help.
>
> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patronymic#Bulgarian
>
>>> When I tried
>>> entering this suffix into Gramps,
>>
>> To allow someone to try and answer your question could you be more
>> specific as to in which field you entered what you refer to as the
>> suffix 'ova'?

Since you used the term 'suffix' I got the impression you might have
entered the 'ova' suffix in the suffix field, which AFAIK it intended
for other purposes.

>>> it just made a mess of things (duplicate
>>> families and so on).

Looking at the name editor I imagine it provides for ample possibilities
to enter various kinds of names, be it the birth, married, other type of
name, as well as origins of those names.

>>> Is there a way to enter this Gramps while maintaining
>>> proper relationship structure and consistency?

Having stated that I have no experience with the use of some addition to
patrilineal names that is intended to indicate the gender of the
individual concerned, so I don't know the the proper use of the options
provided by the name editor might still result in 'a mess' a you
described it.

>>> Thanks.

Regards, Jk.

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Re: european female surnames ending in 'ova'

John W. Kitz-3
In reply to this post by executive
Executive,

On 2017-12-09 02:44, executive wrote:

> Per, I thought I gave an example, but I will give you more. Consider
> the
> greatest female Czech tennis player of all time, Martina Navratilova.
> Father/Coach: Miroslav Navratil. I'm sure you've heard of Madeleine
> Albright, born Marie Korbelova in Prague, to Josef Korbel. However, the
> exact female form can vary slightly depending on the last letters in
> the
> male form, ex. Stastny/Stastna.
>
> Thank you, Nick. I think name grouping solved it, as it allows the
> feminine
> and masculine version of the family surname to be considered the same.
> It's
> a little bit tedious having to do it each time for each name, rather
> than
> setting general rules, but thankfully my tree isn't that large.
>
> John, I was entering the entire name (ex. "Navratilova") into the
> surname
> field. We don't use the middle patronymic name system.

That may be true for the country or geographic area you live in today,
but it may not be true for the country or geographic area that some of
the ancestors of the individuals you are researching originated from.

To give an example: let's say somebody in the US, with the patrilineal
last name Jacobs starts to research her or his ancestors. That search
may at some point have lead her or him to The Netherlands (since quite a
number of US immigrants originated from The Netherlands) and the origin
of the last name Jacobs may in fact turn out to have been a patronymic
name, which was fixed and legalized to be patrilineal as the result of
the transition from religious to civil registries in the early 1800's
(see https://sourceforge.net/p/gramps/mailman/message/36147348/).

Since history shows that small or large scale migration, as the result
of economic or religious circumstances, wars, etc. is of all times, it
certainly is not beyond the realm of possibilities that you'll encounter
names in the country or geographic area you live in today that originate
from some other country or geographic area.

> Usually, just two
> names - nice and simple :)

Please consider that simple isn't always good.

Success and regards, Jk.

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Re: european female surnames ending in 'ova'

Nick Hall
In reply to this post by executive
On 09/12/17 01:44, executive wrote:
> Thank you, Nick. I think name grouping solved it, as it allows the feminine
> and masculine version of the family surname to be considered the same. It's
> a little bit tedious having to do it each time for each name, rather than
> setting general rules, but thankfully my tree isn't that large.

I suggest that you open a feature request for slavic surname guessing.

https://gramps-project.org/bugs

It should be easy to implement if we know the rules.

Nick.



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Re: european female surnames ending in 'ova'

Nick Hall
On 09/12/17 13:50, Nick Hall wrote:
> I suggest that you open a feature request for slavic surname guessing.

or add a note to the following:

3913: wrong pre-filled surname according to Czech conventions: (also
Slovak and maybe other Slavic nations)
https://gramps-project.org/bugs/view.php?id=3913

Nick.



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Re: european female surnames ending in 'ova'

Jakub Holotík
Hi, 
I guess describing the rules and implementing correct surname guessing would be quite hard, as it often depends also on the local tradition (some female surnames can have several forms, e.g. Švec - > Švecová /Švecová or foreign Werner -> Wernerová /Wernrová, depending on the family tradition and ease of pronunciation). And such rules are language specific, as Slovaks have a bit different rules than Czechs.

I would rather suggest some form of management for name groups. Each name group can have a 'Grouping name', several variants, a preferred male and preferred female variant. 

Right now I have more than a thousand persons in my tree and just a little over 250 such groups - it's not that much work to set up and you only have to do it once when the person is added.

Jakub

On Sat, 9 Dec 2017, 14:58 Nick Hall, <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 09/12/17 13:50, Nick Hall wrote:
> I suggest that you open a feature request for slavic surname guessing.

or add a note to the following:

3913: wrong pre-filled surname according to Czech conventions: (also
Slovak and maybe other Slavic nations)
https://gramps-project.org/bugs/view.php?id=3913

Nick.



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Re: european female surnames ending in 'ova'

Per Starbäck
> I would rather suggest some form of management for name groups. Each name
> group can have a 'Grouping name', several variants, a preferred male and
> preferred female variant.

I think that sounds good, but also that it would be useful to be able
to categorize *any* of the variants as male or female (and not just
the preferred variants). That way when adding a father to a woman with
a (non-preferred) female variant the preferred male variant could be
suggested for him.

Also I would like to add that this is not only about Slavic names, but
at least it has also been the case for Latinised names used by learned
people. For example in Sweden when a surname like Rothovius or
Gerdzlovius was chosen by clerics in Sweden (in the 16th or 17th
century) a daughter would be called Rothovia or Gerdzlovia.

Later this has changed (as knowledge in Latin declined, I guess), so
now there are for instance 261 people in Sweden with the surname
Norelius, and none with Norelia, which earlier women in those families
would have been called. In a similar way I think it's common that
emigrants with Slavic names start to use only the male form, and we
get names like Alexandra Tolstoy in England with the male form of the
surname.

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