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JRSibert
Thumbnail images added after upgrade to v5.1.1 do not appear on family
lines graph pdf output. Thumbnails added before upgrade are fine.
Thumbnails also appear normally on the "Charts" view. I have verified
the path and tried both jpg and png images, and I believe that the path
is recorded in the data base. Any ideas?

Thanks, John



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What is the difference between range and span dates

Patrick Gerlier

I read the wiki about range and span dates and it does not seem obvious to me (native language issue).

I have two uses of "extended" dates in my tree:

  • an event for which the date is not known with certainty: it occured between date A and date B
  • an event which has a duration (though the boundary dates may themselves be approximate), such as an employment position, a residency or a place enclosure

I want to make a distinction between the two cases. How should I code my dates so that I have a visual clue with the different wordings of the dates?

Regards,
Patrick



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Re: What is the difference between range and span dates

Patrice Legoux
For the first I'll use between-and denoting you don't know precisely the range and from-to for the second with precise dates as you know them. You can add notes to the events to describe your knowledge about dates you cites.

Patrice

Le mer. 13 nov. 2019 à 11:25, Patrick Gerlier <[hidden email]> a écrit :

I read the wiki about range and span dates and it does not seem obvious to me (native language issue).

I have two uses of "extended" dates in my tree:

  • an event for which the date is not known with certainty: it occured between date A and date B
  • an event which has a duration (though the boundary dates may themselves be approximate), such as an employment position, a residency or a place enclosure

I want to make a distinction between the two cases. How should I code my dates so that I have a visual clue with the different wordings of the dates?

Regards,
Patrick

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Re: What is the difference between range and span dates

Dave Scheipers
In reply to this post by Patrick Gerlier
Hi Patrick

This is how I keep their usage straight.

A single unknown date happening  BETWEEN date 1 AND date 2

An event happening over a span of time...

FROM date 1 TO date 2

Dave


On Wed, Nov 13, 2019 at 5:22 AM Patrick Gerlier <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> I read the wiki about range and span dates and it does not seem obvious to me (native language issue).
>
> I have two uses of "extended" dates in my tree:
>
> an event for which the date is not known with certainty: it occured between date A and date B
> an event which has a duration (though the boundary dates may themselves be approximate), such as an employment position, a residency or a place enclosure
>
> I want to make a distinction between the two cases. How should I code my dates so that I have a visual clue with the different wordings of the dates?
>
> Regards,
> Patrick
>
> --
> Gramps-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users
> https://gramps-project.org


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Re: What is the difference between range and span dates

GRAMPS - User mailing list
In reply to this post by Patrice Legoux
Patrick,

Please tell us what pages of the the Wiki you felt were particularly unclear.  I am sure many places could be made more clear.  But much to everyone's frustration, material is presented redundantly and we can't know what section did not help you. (There are thousands of pages in the Wiki, authored by many people with different writing styles.)  It might be presented better elsewhere but improvements to clarity are rarely synchronized.

One of the reasons that I contribute to the Wiki is: documenting a feature requires thoroughly exploring it.  I 'document' as a method of learning... rather than learning by reading documentation. (I tend to 'skim' rather than read every word.  That isn't good for technical material.) If you don't want to be a WikiContributor, you could also file a Documentation enhancement request for a manual section with a draft suggestion to be edited. (A enhancement request WITHOUT a draft suggestion will probably be ignored.  EVERYTHING in any wiki can use enhancing.) You may find that writing the draft will also help you learn the feature.

Regarding your question on improving distinction between dates with uncertainty ranges & those spanning known periods...

I like to use some of the Date Quality modifiers. They highlight the uncertainty

Examples (with arbitrary sample dates):
-------------------------------------------------------
  1) there is no known birthdate for a child but the dates are known for the parents (mother 1839-1906, father 1835-Jul 1892).  So logically, the birth will have occurred between the latter onset date for normal puberty between the two parents & the mother's death or the death of the father plus normal gestation.
     birth: estimated between 1852 and Mar 1893
   2) the birth date is unknown but the gravestone has death (16 May 1852) and age (46y 2m 3d)
     death: calculated about 13 Mar 1806
  3) found when a newspaper wedding announcement was published (7 Jun 1910) but do not have the article
      marriage: about 7 Jun 1910


The calculation value ranges used for these estimates is set in the the Dates tab of Preferences:

You might find this add-on tool interesting:

Note that the before/after/estimated/about/calculated & spans caused some difficulties for localising.  (The order of words in different languages made the Date Handler become hard to maintain.)

And of a completely different vein but related to Date quality...  It is important to note that most programs do not have Gramps' flexibility in handling dates.  Some do not allow a date without a day & month. Others even add a '1' placeholder for day and/or month when exporting such 'incomplete' dates that lack a value. They conventionally substitute a '1' for the NULL value.  So, day 1 of the month and the 1st month of the year should always be suspected of being junk data when being imported or transcribed. 

-Brian

On Wednesday, November 13, 2019, 6:34:35 AM CST, Patrice Legoux <[hidden email]> wrote:


For the first I'll use between-and denoting you don't know precisely the range and from-to for the second with precise dates as you know them. You can add notes to the events to describe your knowledge about dates you cites.

Patrice

Le mer. 13 nov. 2019 à 11:25, Patrick Gerlier <[hidden email]> a écrit :

I read the wiki about range and span dates and it does not seem obvious to me (native language issue).

I have two uses of "extended" dates in my tree:

  • an event for which the date is not known with certainty: it occurred between date A and date B
  • an event which has a duration (though the boundary dates may themselves be approximate), such as an employment position, a residency or a place enclosure

I want to make a distinction between the two cases. How should I code my dates so that I have a visual clue with the different wordings of the dates?

Regards,
Patrick



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Re: What is the difference between range and span dates

Patrick Gerlier

Brain,

Thanks for your suggestion(s).

Before being a Wiki contributor, I must understand what is the intent behind the various date types. Some are quite obvious, such as before, after and about. I am aware of the Preferences settings for them and am already using this customisation to my advantage.

One of my problems is English. Though I consider myself relatively fluent in this language, I must exercise great care because my copy of Gramps comes localised and I must "reverse-translate" to match the wiki or the code. You know, "traduttore, traditore".

(continued below)

Le 13/11/2019 à 15:12, Emyoulation--- via Gramps-users a écrit :
Patrick,

Please tell us what pages of the the Wiki you felt were particularly unclear.  I am sure many places could be made more clear.  But much to everyone's frustration, material is presented redundantly and we can't know what section did not help you. (There are thousands of pages in the Wiki, authored by many people with different writing styles.)  It might be presented better elsewhere but improvements to clarity are rarely synchronized.

One of the reasons that I contribute to the Wiki is: documenting a feature requires thoroughly exploring it.  I 'document' as a method of learning... rather than learning by reading documentation. (I tend to 'skim' rather than read every word.  That isn't good for technical material.) If you don't want to be a WikiContributor, you could also file a Documentation enhancement request for a manual section with a draft suggestion to be edited. (A enhancement request WITHOUT a draft suggestion will probably be ignored.  EVERYTHING in any wiki can use enhancing.) You may find that writing the draft will also help you learn the feature.

Regarding your question on improving distinction between dates with uncertainty ranges & those spanning known periods...

I like to use some of the Date Quality modifiers. They highlight the uncertainty

This is precisely the Wiki page I (re)read before posting, but the section about the date dialog has several issues.

  • The left drop-down menu is labelled "Quality" and shows Regular/Estimated/Computed items while the wiki text lists them under "Type"
  • Similarly, the right drop-down menu labelled "Type" contains Regular/Before/After/… but wiki text lists them under "Quality"

This is quite confusing.

  • In the "Date Quality" paragraph (once again, this is not consistent with the dialog and in my understanding of words it should be defined as "Type", the "quality" being related to date uncertainty), "Range" is defined as "a time period during which the event occurred" and "Span" as "a time period during which a condition existed

Both expressions are too close to each other and the provided examples do not help much because no context is given. Examples could be improved:

- Captain John Smith has been stationed in the 1st Grenadier regiment between 1888-5-13 and 1902-10-24 according to his military record (words "between" and "and" intentionally used as this is the way we talk in day-to-day life); Then date should be coded "from … to …" because this is the duration of his duty.

- Captain John Smith's regiment reached the Escaut river the week before the Armistice. Then date should be coded "between 1918-11-4 and 1918-11-11" because this date for this "instantaneous" event is not well known.

What complicates matters is also the translation in my Gramps copy. "Range" is translated as "Étendué", i.e. extended, and "Span" as "Incrémenté", i.e. incremented, both of which do not make a lot of sense in traditional classic French.


Examples (with arbitrary sample dates):
-------------------------------------------------------
  1) there is no known birthdate for a child but the dates are known for the parents (mother 1839-1906, father 1835-Jul 1892).  So logically, the birth will have occurred between the latter onset date for normal puberty between the two parents & the mother's death or the death of the father plus normal gestation.
     birth: estimated between 1852 and Mar 1893
   2) the birth date is unknown but the gravestone has death (16 May 1852) and age (46y 2m 3d)
     death: calculated about 13 Mar 1806
  3) found when a newspaper wedding announcement was published (7 Jun 1910) but do not have the article
      marriage: about 7 Jun 1910

IMHO, these examples deal rather with "quality" regular/estimated/calculated though the first one uses "between … and …" which itself is on the boundary  between type and quality. This dilemma illustrates the difficulty to list some date "style" under Type or Quality.

Should range and span dates be offered in the same menu? I know that changing this would introduce a major incompatibility with existing trees, but I feel, after the explanation provided as answers to my question, that range and span belong in different semantic categories.

What about a span not exactly known (not implemented in Gramps)? In this case, you can't use a span date for the event (otherwise it would be way too complicated). Instead, you create a start event with a range date and an end event with a range date.



The calculation value ranges used for these estimates is set in the the Dates tab of Preferences:

You might find this add-on tool interesting:

Note that the before/after/estimated/about/calculated & spans caused some difficulties for localising.  (The order of words in different languages made the Date Handler become hard to maintain.)

And of a completely different vein but related to Date quality...  It is important to note that most programs do not have Gramps' flexibility in handling dates.  Some do not allow a date without a day & month. Others even add a '1' placeholder for day and/or month when exporting such 'incomplete' dates that lack a value. They conventionally substitute a '1' for the NULL value.  So, day 1 of the month and the 1st month of the year should always be suspected of being junk data when being imported or transcribed. 

I really do appreciate Gramps versatility and date "fuzzyness" feature. However, in complicated cases e.g. the event occurred on the 25th of some month in 1835), contorted dates (like 1835-*-25) end up in character strings which do not sort well with the other "standard" dates in the reports.

Patrick, with my gratitude to all who answered


-Brian

On Wednesday, November 13, 2019, 6:34:35 AM CST, Patrice Legoux [hidden email] wrote:


For the first I'll use between-and denoting you don't know precisely the range and from-to for the second with precise dates as you know them. You can add notes to the events to describe your knowledge about dates you cites.

Patrice

Le mer. 13 nov. 2019 à 11:25, Patrick Gerlier <[hidden email]> a écrit :

I read the wiki about range and span dates and it does not seem obvious to me (native language issue).

I have two uses of "extended" dates in my tree:

  • an event for which the date is not known with certainty: it occurred between date A and date B
  • an event which has a duration (though the boundary dates may themselves be approximate), such as an employment position, a residency or a place enclosure

I want to make a distinction between the two cases. How should I code my dates so that I have a visual clue with the different wordings of the dates?

Regards,
Patrick





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Re: What is the difference between range and span dates

GRAMPS - User mailing list
Patrick,

As I was reviewing the sections after posting my reply, I saw the same inconsistencies you noted between Date Quality & Type in the interface & the documentation. I don't know who wrote it or how long ago, but it would have been very easy to mix up two such closely associated features. And it is also possible the GUI originally had them in swapped positions. I'm happy that the individual options were documented and can be re-sorted to match the GUI organization.

I am trying to clean that up now.  Some sections are tidied & updated already. (You pointed out ambiguities in some of the freshly posted examples.)  But all edits benefit from vicious critiques. Some feedback might bruise my pride but the idea is for the documentation to be useful, not an ego trip. So, while I'm no masochist, I encourage you to be merciless!

As far as the GUI, my feeling is that 'Type' is too generic for categorizing the "Regular, Before, After, About, Range, Span, Text only" options.  It seems like 'Interval', 'Precision', 'Time Frame' would be more descriptive.  What do you think?  GUI labels fall a bit towards the nit-picking side... but no one has to actually DO a feature that is requested.

-Brian

On Wednesday, November 13, 2019, 9:56:00 AM CST, Patrick Gerlier <[hidden email]> wrote:


Brain,

Thanks for your suggestion(s).

Before being a Wiki contributor, I must understand what is the intent behind the various date types. Some are quite obvious, such as before, after and about. I am aware of the Preferences settings for them and am already using this customisation to my advantage.

One of my problems is English. Though I consider myself relatively fluent in this language, I must exercise great care because my copy of Gramps comes localised and I must "reverse-translate" to match the wiki or the code. You know, "traduttore, traditore".

(continued below)

Le 13/11/2019 à 15:12, Emyoulation--- via Gramps-users a écrit :
Patrick,

Please tell us what pages of the the Wiki you felt were particularly unclear.  I am sure many places could be made more clear.  But much to everyone's frustration, material is presented redundantly and we can't know what section did not help you. (There are thousands of pages in the Wiki, authored by many people with different writing styles.)  It might be presented better elsewhere but improvements to clarity are rarely synchronized.

One of the reasons that I contribute to the Wiki is: documenting a feature requires thoroughly exploring it.  I 'document' as a method of learning... rather than learning by reading documentation. (I tend to 'skim' rather than read every word.  That isn't good for technical material.) If you don't want to be a WikiContributor, you could also file a Documentation enhancement request for a manual section with a draft suggestion to be edited. (A enhancement request WITHOUT a draft suggestion will probably be ignored.  EVERYTHING in any wiki can use enhancing.) You may find that writing the draft will also help you learn the feature.

Regarding your question on improving distinction between dates with uncertainty ranges & those spanning known periods...

I like to use some of the Date Quality modifiers. They highlight the uncertainty

This is precisely the Wiki page I (re)read before posting, but the section about the date dialog has several issues.

  • The left drop-down menu is labelled "Quality" and shows Regular/Estimated/Computed items while the wiki text lists them under "Type"
  • Similarly, the right drop-down menu labelled "Type" contains Regular/Before/After/… but wiki text lists them under "Quality"

This is quite confusing.

  • In the "Date Quality" paragraph (once again, this is not consistent with the dialog and in my understanding of words it should be defined as "Type", the "quality" being related to date uncertainty), "Range" is defined as "a time period during which the event occurred" and "Span" as "a time period during which a condition existed

Both expressions are too close to each other and the provided examples do not help much because no context is given. Examples could be improved:

- Captain John Smith has been stationed in the 1st Grenadier regiment between 1888-5-13 and 1902-10-24 according to his military record (words "between" and "and" intentionally used as this is the way we talk in day-to-day life); Then date should be coded "from … to …" because this is the duration of his duty.

- Captain John Smith's regiment reached the Escaut river the week before the Armistice. Then date should be coded "between 1918-11-4 and 1918-11-11" because this date for this "instantaneous" event is not well known.

What complicates matters is also the translation in my Gramps copy. "Range" is translated as "Étendué", i.e. extended, and "Span" as "Incrémenté", i.e. incremented, both of which do not make a lot of sense in traditional classic French.


Examples (with arbitrary sample dates):
-------------------------------------------------------
  1) there is no known birthdate for a child but the dates are known for the parents (mother 1839-1906, father 1835-Jul 1892).  So logically, the birth will have occurred between the latter onset date for normal puberty between the two parents & the mother's death or the death of the father plus normal gestation.
     birth: estimated between 1852 and Mar 1893
   2) the birth date is unknown but the gravestone has death (16 May 1852) and age (46y 2m 3d)
     death: calculated about 13 Mar 1806
  3) found when a newspaper wedding announcement was published (7 Jun 1910) but do not have the article
      marriage: about 7 Jun 1910

IMHO, these examples deal rather with "quality" regular/estimated/calculated though the first one uses "between … and …" which itself is on the boundary  between type and quality. This dilemma illustrates the difficulty to list some date "style" under Type or Quality.

Should range and span dates be offered in the same menu? I know that changing this would introduce a major incompatibility with existing trees, but I feel, after the explanation provided as answers to my question, that range and span belong in different semantic categories.

What about a span not exactly known (not implemented in Gramps)? In this case, you can't use a span date for the event (otherwise it would be way too complicated). Instead, you create a start event with a range date and an end event with a range date.



The calculation value ranges used for these estimates is set in the the Dates tab of Preferences:

You might find this add-on tool interesting:

Note that the before/after/estimated/about/calculated & spans caused some difficulties for localising.  (The order of words in different languages made the Date Handler become hard to maintain.)

And of a completely different vein but related to Date quality...  It is important to note that most programs do not have Gramps' flexibility in handling dates.  Some do not allow a date without a day & month. Others even add a '1' placeholder for day and/or month when exporting such 'incomplete' dates that lack a value. They conventionally substitute a '1' for the NULL value.  So, day 1 of the month and the 1st month of the year should always be suspected of being junk data when being imported or transcribed. 

I really do appreciate Gramps versatility and date "fuzzyness" feature. However, in complicated cases e.g. the event occurred on the 25th of some month in 1835), contorted dates (like 1835-*-25) end up in character strings which do not sort well with the other "standard" dates in the reports.

Patrick, with my gratitude to all who answered



-Brian

On Wednesday, November 13, 2019, 6:34:35 AM CST, Patrice Legoux [hidden email] wrote:


For the first I'll use between-and denoting you don't know precisely the range and from-to for the second with precise dates as you know them. You can add notes to the events to describe your knowledge about dates you cites.

Patrice

Le mer. 13 nov. 2019 à 11:25, Patrick Gerlier <[hidden email]> a écrit :

I read the wiki about range and span dates and it does not seem obvious to me (native language issue).

I have two uses of "extended" dates in my tree:

  • an event for which the date is not known with certainty: it occurred between date A and date B
  • an event which has a duration (though the boundary dates may themselves be approximate), such as an employment position, a residency or a place enclosure

I want to make a distinction between the two cases. How should I code my dates so that I have a visual clue with the different wordings of the dates?

Regards,
Patrick





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Re: What is the difference between range and span dates

GRAMPS - User mailing list
In reply to this post by Patrick Gerlier
Patrick,

As WikiContributors, we WILL make errors and the occasional mess. Sam has to pull me back in line frequently. (Sorry Sam!) Please don't let that stop you from joining in to make things better.  You'll be surprised how much you can learn every time you have swear at finding something weird in the Wiki, have to load the Sample tree and experiment to discover how it really works. Then you become more adept by putting in the correct info in the Wiki.

You DO seem to be quite fluent. (No sarcasm)  I admit to some jealously. My foreign language skills are limited to some poorly recalled high-school French, a smattering of computer languages and few words of German, Spanish & Japanese picked up through sheer repetition... some not usable in polite company. Americans even stopped teaching the classics in their original language generations ago.

But the localization of the 36 pages of the Wiki is still at only 90%. I'm sure translators Romjerome & Chris_31 would appreciate some help filling in the missing French screen captures and then pages for documenting the Add-on.  Plus, as Contributors tweak the English pages, someone needs to tweak the French to match & tell us if it doesn't make sense.

Further, I haven't seen anything satisfactory (in English) that gives a review of step-by-step process for a new user for installing a localized Gramps version (instead of the default english) and accessing the localized WikiPages & the 'localized enabled' Help. If a person has no English at all, are they screwed? Can they find a French description of the program, instructions to download & install it, and dig through the websites to find the French manual.  (I'm frustrated by the number of pageloads before getting to the Index of the WikiManual. Is that a barrior to French monoglots?) I noticed that the 4.2 manual is the most recent version linked on the top French page. Can you help get that to 5.1 and eliminate the English Table of Contents on the French page?

The more friendly we make this users of our native languages who are less technically adept, the more users we have finding new ways to use Gramps and sharing their genealogy skills adapted to Gramps capabilities.

Brian

On Wednesday, November 13, 2019, 9:56:00 AM CST, Patrick Gerlier <[hidden email]> wrote:


Brain,

Thanks for your suggestion(s).

Before being a Wiki contributor, I must understand what is the intent behind the various date types. Some are quite obvious, such as before, after and about. I am aware of the Preferences settings for them and am already using this customisation to my advantage.

One of my problems is English. Though I consider myself relatively fluent in this language, I must exercise great care because my copy of Gramps comes localised and I must "reverse-translate" to match the wiki or the code. You know, "traduttore, traditore".

(continued below)

Le 13/11/2019 à 15:12, Emyoulation--- via Gramps-users a écrit :
Patrick,

Please tell us what pages of the the Wiki you felt were particularly unclear.  I am sure many places could be made more clear.  But much to everyone's frustration, material is presented redundantly and we can't know what section did not help you. (There are thousands of pages in the Wiki, authored by many people with different writing styles.)  It might be presented better elsewhere but improvements to clarity are rarely synchronized.

One of the reasons that I contribute to the Wiki is: documenting a feature requires thoroughly exploring it.  I 'document' as a method of learning... rather than learning by reading documentation. (I tend to 'skim' rather than read every word.  That isn't good for technical material.) If you don't want to be a WikiContributor, you could also file a Documentation enhancement request for a manual section with a draft suggestion to be edited. (A enhancement request WITHOUT a draft suggestion will probably be ignored.  EVERYTHING in any wiki can use enhancing.) You may find that writing the draft will also help you learn the feature.

Regarding your question on improving distinction between dates with uncertainty ranges & those spanning known periods...

I like to use some of the Date Quality modifiers. They highlight the uncertainty

This is precisely the Wiki page I (re)read before posting, but the section about the date dialog has several issues.

  • The left drop-down menu is labelled "Quality" and shows Regular/Estimated/Computed items while the wiki text lists them under "Type"
  • Similarly, the right drop-down menu labelled "Type" contains Regular/Before/After/… but wiki text lists them under "Quality"

This is quite confusing.

  • In the "Date Quality" paragraph (once again, this is not consistent with the dialog and in my understanding of words it should be defined as "Type", the "quality" being related to date uncertainty), "Range" is defined as "a time period during which the event occurred" and "Span" as "a time period during which a condition existed

Both expressions are too close to each other and the provided examples do not help much because no context is given. Examples could be improved:

- Captain John Smith has been stationed in the 1st Grenadier regiment between 1888-5-13 and 1902-10-24 according to his military record (words "between" and "and" intentionally used as this is the way we talk in day-to-day life); Then date should be coded "from … to …" because this is the duration of his duty.

- Captain John Smith's regiment reached the Escaut river the week before the Armistice. Then date should be coded "between 1918-11-4 and 1918-11-11" because this date for this "instantaneous" event is not well known.

What complicates matters is also the translation in my Gramps copy. "Range" is translated as "Étendué", i.e. extended, and "Span" as "Incrémenté", i.e. incremented, both of which do not make a lot of sense in traditional classic French.


Examples (with arbitrary sample dates):
-------------------------------------------------------
  1) there is no known birthdate for a child but the dates are known for the parents (mother 1839-1906, father 1835-Jul 1892).  So logically, the birth will have occurred between the latter onset date for normal puberty between the two parents & the mother's death or the death of the father plus normal gestation.
     birth: estimated between 1852 and Mar 1893
   2) the birth date is unknown but the gravestone has death (16 May 1852) and age (46y 2m 3d)
     death: calculated about 13 Mar 1806
  3) found when a newspaper wedding announcement was published (7 Jun 1910) but do not have the article
      marriage: about 7 Jun 1910

IMHO, these examples deal rather with "quality" regular/estimated/calculated though the first one uses "between … and …" which itself is on the boundary  between type and quality. This dilemma illustrates the difficulty to list some date "style" under Type or Quality.

Should range and span dates be offered in the same menu? I know that changing this would introduce a major incompatibility with existing trees, but I feel, after the explanation provided as answers to my question, that range and span belong in different semantic categories.

What about a span not exactly known (not implemented in Gramps)? In this case, you can't use a span date for the event (otherwise it would be way too complicated). Instead, you create a start event with a range date and an end event with a range date.



The calculation value ranges used for these estimates is set in the the Dates tab of Preferences:

You might find this add-on tool interesting:

Note that the before/after/estimated/about/calculated & spans caused some difficulties for localising.  (The order of words in different languages made the Date Handler become hard to maintain.)

And of a completely different vein but related to Date quality...  It is important to note that most programs do not have Gramps' flexibility in handling dates.  Some do not allow a date without a day & month. Others even add a '1' placeholder for day and/or month when exporting such 'incomplete' dates that lack a value. They conventionally substitute a '1' for the NULL value.  So, day 1 of the month and the 1st month of the year should always be suspected of being junk data when being imported or transcribed. 

I really do appreciate Gramps versatility and date "fuzzyness" feature. However, in complicated cases e.g. the event occurred on the 25th of some month in 1835), contorted dates (like 1835-*-25) end up in character strings which do not sort well with the other "standard" dates in the reports.

Patrick, with my gratitude to all who answered



-Brian

On Wednesday, November 13, 2019, 6:34:35 AM CST, Patrice Legoux [hidden email] wrote:


For the first I'll use between-and denoting you don't know precisely the range and from-to for the second with precise dates as you know them. You can add notes to the events to describe your knowledge about dates you cites.

Patrice

Le mer. 13 nov. 2019 à 11:25, Patrick Gerlier <[hidden email]> a écrit :

I read the wiki about range and span dates and it does not seem obvious to me (native language issue).

I have two uses of "extended" dates in my tree:

  • an event for which the date is not known with certainty: it occurred between date A and date B
  • an event which has a duration (though the boundary dates may themselves be approximate), such as an employment position, a residency or a place enclosure

I want to make a distinction between the two cases. How should I code my dates so that I have a visual clue with the different wordings of the dates?

Regards,
Patrick





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Re: What is the difference between range and span dates

adrian.davey
In reply to this post by Patrick Gerlier

A further issue that often frustrates me is that sometimes only one of the two values defining a range or span is known to even the year. The other may be completely unknown, or may only be known to have been on the far side of some value (i.e. before in the case of a vague opening value, or after in the case of a vague closing one).

So, for example, a person might have been resident in a parish from the day of their birth or recorded arrival, but the concluding date is only known to have been some time (though possibly many decades) after the last available volume in the archives. The "date" of the uncertain opening or closing marker or event may only be known very imprecisely.

The best I have come up with so far is to use a date value that will necessarily display as invalid, such as "from 1850-04-16 to after about 1894" or "between the mid-late 1870s and 1883-11-17". (At least the invalid date markup helps prompt further investigation.)

Adrian


  • In the "Date Quality" paragraph (once again, this is not consistent with the dialog and in my understanding of words it should be defined as "Type", the "quality" being related to date uncertainty), "Range" is defined as "a time period during which the event occurred" and "Span" as "a time period during which a condition existed

Both expressions are too close to each other and the provided examples do not help much because no context is given. Examples could be improved:

- Captain John Smith has been stationed in the 1st Grenadier regiment between 1888-5-13 and 1902-10-24 according to his military record (words "between" and "and" intentionally used as this is the way we talk in day-to-day life); Then date should be coded "from … to …" because this is the duration of his duty.

- Captain John Smith's regiment reached the Escaut river the week before the Armistice. Then date should be coded "between 1918-11-4 and 1918-11-11" because this date for this "instantaneous" event is not well known.



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Re: family lines graph

Dave Scheipers
In reply to this post by JRSibert
Hi John

I just tested the report on a family that I just added photos.  I too
am on 5.1.1. Those photos showed up in the Family Lines Graph. I did
nothing special when adding these photos to the database.

I am using GrampsAIO-5.1.1-1_win64

Which flavor of Gramps are you using on what OS?

The only way I could duplicate the phenomenon was to mark the photos
as Private.. The photos show in the  views within the internal
workings of Gramps. Because the Family Graph Lines creates an external
report, without the "Include data marked private" checked (tab Report
Options (2)) the photo do not get added to the report.

Sorry, That's all I got, Dave


On Tue, Nov 12, 2019 at 4:44 PM John Sibert <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Thumbnail images added after upgrade to v5.1.1 do not appear on family
> lines graph pdf output. Thumbnails added before upgrade are fine.
> Thumbnails also appear normally on the "Charts" view. I have verified
> the path and tried both jpg and png images, and I believe that the path
> is recorded in the data base. Any ideas?
>
> Thanks, John
>
>
>
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Re: family lines graph

JRSibert
Ach. Face palm!

I had some restrictions on living people. Changed it to "Included, and
all data" and it works fine now.

Thanks,

John

I'm using gramps 5.1.1 on Mint 19.2:


GRAMPS: 5.1.1
Python: 3.6.8 (default, Oct  7 2019, 12:59:55) [...
BSDDB: 6.1.0 (5, 3, 28)
sqlite: 3.22.0 (2.6.0)
LANG: en_US.UTF-8
OS: Linux
Distribution: 4.15.0-66-generic

On 11/13/19 3:42 PM, Dave Scheipers wrote:

> Hi John
>
> I just tested the report on a family that I just added photos.  I too
> am on 5.1.1. Those photos showed up in the Family Lines Graph. I did
> nothing special when adding these photos to the database.
>
> I am using GrampsAIO-5.1.1-1_win64
>
> Which flavor of Gramps are you using on what OS?
>
> The only way I could duplicate the phenomenon was to mark the photos
> as Private.. The photos show in the  views within the internal
> workings of Gramps. Because the Family Graph Lines creates an external
> report, without the "Include data marked private" checked (tab Report
> Options (2)) the photo do not get added to the report.
>
> Sorry, That's all I got, Dave
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 12, 2019 at 4:44 PM John Sibert <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Thumbnail images added after upgrade to v5.1.1 do not appear on family
>> lines graph pdf output. Thumbnails added before upgrade are fine.
>> Thumbnails also appear normally on the "Charts" view. I have verified
>> the path and tried both jpg and png images, and I believe that the path
>> is recorded in the data base. Any ideas?
>>
>> Thanks, John
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Gramps-users mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users
>> https://gramps-project.org



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Re: What is the difference between range and span dates

Patrick Gerlier
In reply to this post by adrian.davey

Le 13/11/2019 à 22:46, Adrian Davey a écrit :

>
> A further issue that often frustrates me is that sometimes only one of
> the two values defining a range or span is known to even the year. The
> other may be completely unknown, or may only be known to have been on
> the far side of some value (i.e. before in the case of a vague opening
> value, or after in the case of a vague closing one).
>
> So, for example, a person might have been resident in a parish from
> the day of their birth or recorded arrival, but the concluding date is
> only known to have been some time (though possibly many decades) after
> the last available volume in the archives. The "date" of the uncertain
> opening or closing marker or event may only be known very imprecisely.
>
> The best I have come up with so far is to use a date value that will
> necessarily display as invalid, such as "from 1850-04-16 to after
> about 1894" or "between the mid-late 1870s and 1883-11-17". (At least
> the invalid date markup helps prompt further investigation.)
>
> Adrian
>
This is the kind of problem I alluded to in a previous post: the "event"
has a duration but the limits are not known exactly. As you point out,
adding uncertainty to a span date leads to an invalid format. My
unfriendly solution is to replace the single event record with two
records: a start event with possibly an "about" or "range" date and an
end event with same possibilities. This is not really convenient but it
fits the general lines of dates in Gramps.

Patrick




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Re: What is the difference between range and span dates

Patrick Gerlier
Hi all,

Night is a good advisor.

After correcting my interval events with the "span" format instead of
"range", I realised that I use "before" and "after" dates with two
meanings. This adds confusion to my tree.

Both "before" and "after", can be considered as a type and a quality.

In my Places hierarchy, I use "after" to denote that a place entered a
county/province/country on a date taken from a treaty and that this
relation is valid until now. Similarly, "before" describes a state valid
up to the treaty, though this may not be true but the existing archives 
don't allow to give a starting date. Therefore, the "before" and "after"
dates are in fact open-ended intervals equivalent to "span" dates with
one end indefinite.

In the People records, "before" and "after" dates are usually (there can
be exceptions) an indication that information is missing but I can
ascertain that the event occurred before or after the date I mention.
This gives a boundary for my future research. However, for some events,
an "after" date, e.g. a residency or an occupation, might mean "until
death" without the need to fix the event, should the death date be
corrected.

For me, this means  that presently Type and Quality in dates are not
well defined and separated and gives rise to ambiguity when the tree is
transmitted or constructed under collaborative work (an obvious
assumption is not at all obvious for someone else).

Am I completely out of track or should further enhancement be brought to
the dates in general? (Beware, this might break many things and make
present trees unusable)

Patrick




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Re: What is the difference between range and span dates

StoltHD
Patrick,

I'm doing it the same way... I have multiple meanings of before and after, as it is in human language as well... it all depend on the context of the use...

I never set a date I don't know and have documented, but some times one Event with an open ended time period will be closed by another event... i.e. residence, if you find another residence later it will naturally close the period/span for the first residence event, but, it is still not sure that the person didnn't lived another place in between...

Same with places, often the researchers/historians can say something about a place, i.e. "before 1650 it was in xxx, and the event happened sometime between 1640 and 1650 and lasted for at least 1,5 years..." here you have multiple open periods, and without documentation, you can't close the time period, but you can set it to a place in time and for the event in a range of years in between 2 dates (i don't think you can set the range in years in Gramps)

I think we always should document what we find, not geassing anything, and if needed create a note explaining how we have used a given set of attributes (names, dates, places, notes, types are all attributes)...


Jaran

tor. 14. nov. 2019 kl. 10:08 skrev Patrick Gerlier <[hidden email]>:
Hi all,

Night is a good advisor.

After correcting my interval events with the "span" format instead of
"range", I realised that I use "before" and "after" dates with two
meanings. This adds confusion to my tree.

Both "before" and "after", can be considered as a type and a quality.

In my Places hierarchy, I use "after" to denote that a place entered a
county/province/country on a date taken from a treaty and that this
relation is valid until now. Similarly, "before" describes a state valid
up to the treaty, though this may not be true but the existing archives 
don't allow to give a starting date. Therefore, the "before" and "after"
dates are in fact open-ended intervals equivalent to "span" dates with
one end indefinite.

In the People records, "before" and "after" dates are usually (there can
be exceptions) an indication that information is missing but I can
ascertain that the event occurred before or after the date I mention.
This gives a boundary for my future research. However, for some events,
an "after" date, e.g. a residency or an occupation, might mean "until
death" without the need to fix the event, should the death date be
corrected.

For me, this means  that presently Type and Quality in dates are not
well defined and separated and gives rise to ambiguity when the tree is
transmitted or constructed under collaborative work (an obvious
assumption is not at all obvious for someone else).

Am I completely out of track or should further enhancement be brought to
the dates in general? (Beware, this might break many things and make
present trees unusable)

Patrick




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Re: What is the difference between range and span dates

Peter Merchant
I do always like to have a date on things, even if I can't tie it down exactly. There is always the hope that I will find  an exact date eventually.

It can help in doing investigations to have a approximate period where you could investigate. I have discovered for instance that gramps treats as a valid date the day 00 of the month, such as 1966-06-00 when I know that someone was born in June, but not which day. I did like the note earlier about having invalid dates because gramps bolds them, and therefore you know that they are invalid. I would rather put in a range, or an approximation than leave a date blank.  OTOH I can see the rationale for having a blank space that pushes at you to investigate and complete.

Peter

On 14/11/2019 15:37, StoltHD wrote:

> Patrick,
>
> I never set a date I don't know and have documented, but some times one Event with an open ended time period will be closed by another event... i.e. residence, if you find another residence later it will naturally close the period/span for the first residence event, but, it is still not sure that the person didnn't lived another place in between...
>
>
>
> I think we always should document what we find, not geassing anything, and if needed create a note explaining how we have used a given set of attributes (names, dates, places, notes, types are all attributes)...
>
>
> Jaran


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Re: What is the difference between range and span dates

Patrick Gerlier

Hello Peter,

I adopted a more complex workflow in addition to the various quality/precision of dates.

The records for persons and families receive a flag when they first show up and this flags follows the development of my research. The flag represents a "state" (I worked too long with "finite state automata" not to be deeply influenced by them).

  • New is the first state: I only have the name (or it is a blank placeholder for a new family) or events for which this person is not in the main role; there may be vague dates such as "about", "before", "after" or range -- I know nothing precisely
  • Partial is the next state when I collect at least an exact date, or marriage and child for a family
  • Final state may be "no flag" (complete information) or Lapse because archive are missing (e.g. think of the destruction during the French Revolution) or irremediably lost
  • A special final state is Archive restriction for the case when the archive are not public (not yet disclosed because events too recent) meaning I have no chance to get the information

Also, when a person or family is considered complete, I may flag the record No posterity as a shortcut to avoid the need to open it to check.

All these flags are associated with colours so that I have a visual clue on screen: red for "new", green for "partial", brown for "lapse", orange for "archive restricted", standard black for complete and gray for "no posterity". This colour code tells me where to focus my attention.

Patrick

Le 15/11/2019 à 09:22, Peter Merchant a écrit :
I do always like to have a date on things, even if I can't tie it down exactly. There is always the hope that I will find  an exact date eventually.

It can help in doing investigations to have a approximate period where you could investigate. I have discovered for instance that gramps treats as a valid date the day 00 of the month, such as 1966-06-00 when I know that someone was born in June, but not which day. I did like the note earlier about having invalid dates because gramps bolds them, and therefore you know that they are invalid. I would rather put in a range, or an approximation than leave a date blank.  OTOH I can see the rationale for having a blank space that pushes at you to investigate and complete.

Peter



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