gramps reports layouts and polish translation

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gramps reports layouts and polish translation

pielgrzym
Hello,
I was told to drop you a line with my suggestions of making reports.
Since I had some problem concerning 'my ideal visualisation of
pedigree' maybe I share with you with my idea. Reports being made by
plugins are nice and neat, but on the other hand user can not
personalize it, can he? I mean, my problem was like 'I want whole the
pedigree' basically, whole database, there's only one way, as far as I
know, of doing that - using graphviz. It's a little bit spartan, but
it works. It's just you can't easily make pedigree using graphviz the
way you would, if you could (how to edit look of that graph?). So,
it's just an idea, I'm not a programmer myself, is it possible to make
reports layouts more editable?

The second matter of my post is polish translation. I am Pole, so if
you want I can try to refresh (2 years?) old polish translation, since
GRAMPS is very good piece of software I'd be nice if Poles could have
decent polish locales for it, ne?;)


greetz for GRAMPS team, good work
piel aka pielgrzym

--
a bo czemu nie?


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Re: gramps reports layouts and polish translation

wb-3
On Sunday December 25 2005 04:18, pielgrzym wrote:

> Hello,
> I was told to drop you a line with my suggestions of making reports.
> Since I had some problem concerning 'my ideal visualisation of
> pedigree' maybe I share with you with my idea. Reports being made by
> plugins are nice and neat, but on the other hand user can not
> personalize it, can he? I mean, my problem was like 'I want whole the
> pedigree' basically, whole database, there's only one way, as far as
> I know, of doing that - using graphviz. It's a little bit spartan,
> but it works. It's just you can't easily make pedigree using graphviz
> the way you would, if you could (how to edit look of that graph?).
> So, it's just an idea, I'm not a programmer myself, is it possible to
> make reports layouts more editable?

When I began using Gramps, I had a similar problem.

The solution, for me, was to produce Graphviz code, like you suggest.

I am somewhat of a programmer, so I then wrote scripts to modify the dot
files.  The scripts got a little more complicated than I would like,
but they produce EXACTLY the graph I want.

It would be nice if the Gramps code generator would allow the selection,
in Gramps, of many of the graphviz parameters.  Parameters like
coloring, spacing, node geometry, and so on.  But, it is probably
easier to just do this kind of manipulation in scripts outside of
Gramps.

What exact changes to the graphviz graphs would you like?

A lot of changes to the graphs can be done with very simple bash
scripts, after Gramps produces the graph.

--
        USA Today has come out with a new survey: Apparently three
        out of four people make up 75 percent of the population.
       
                -- David Letterman


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Re: gramps reports layouts and polish translation

Don Allingham
On Sun, 2005-12-25 at 09:43 -0600, wb wrote:

> When I began using Gramps, I had a similar problem.
>
> The solution, for me, was to produce Graphviz code, like you suggest.
>
> I am somewhat of a programmer, so I then wrote scripts to modify the dot
> files.  The scripts got a little more complicated than I would like,
> but they produce EXACTLY the graph I want.
>
> It would be nice if the Gramps code generator would allow the selection,
> in Gramps, of many of the graphviz parameters.  Parameters like
> coloring, spacing, node geometry, and so on.  But, it is probably
> easier to just do this kind of manipulation in scripts outside of
> Gramps.
>
> What exact changes to the graphviz graphs would you like?
>
> A lot of changes to the graphs can be done with very simple bash
> scripts, after Gramps produces the graph.
Actually, I think we would all like to see what you have done. If you
could post your modified graphviz output using the sample database, it
would show us your ideas. (under "Help", select "Open Example
Database").

We would like to improve the reports, but the development team usually
doesn't have as much time to do things like this as we like. If we can
get users to submit patches, examples, or other things like this, it
helps us quite a bit.

With good examples, we can do a lot. The new web page generator came
into play because about three people submitted good examples for use to
look at.

Any help we can get is always appreciated. The core development team is
small, and most of our time goes to support. So if users can help us
with good, high quality examples, it makes our job much easier. It is
much quicker to implement something when you have a good example,
instead of having to come with ideas on our own and implement them.

My artistic ability is pretty low. Compare the early web page generator
(which I designed) with the current one (which users designed), and
you'll see why we like to have input from our users.

Don


--
Don Allingham <[hidden email]>

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Re: gramps reports layouts and polish translation

Alex Roitman
In reply to this post by pielgrzym
On Sun, 2005-12-25 at 11:18 +0100, pielgrzym wrote:
>
> The second matter of my post is polish translation. I am Pole, so if
> you want I can try to refresh (2 years?) old polish translation, since
> GRAMPS is very good piece of software I'd be nice if Poles could have
> decent polish locales for it, ne?;)

I think there is no possible objection here :-)
If you decide to help with the translation, here's
some info about generally working with po files
as well as some GRAMPS specifics:
   http://developers.gramps-project.org/tiki-index.php?page=TipsForTranslators

Please feel free to ask, although I will be out of
town between tomorrow and Jan 2.

Alex

--
Alexander Roitman   http://www.gramps-project.org

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Re: gramps reports layouts and polish translation

Eero Tamminen-3
In reply to this post by wb-3
Hi,

On Sunday 25 December 2005 17:43, wb wrote:

> > I was told to drop you a line with my suggestions of making reports.
> > Since I had some problem concerning 'my ideal visualisation of
> > pedigree' maybe I share with you with my idea. Reports being made by
> > plugins are nice and neat, but on the other hand user can not
> > personalize it, can he? I mean, my problem was like 'I want whole the
> > pedigree' basically, whole database, there's only one way, as far as
> > I know, of doing that - using graphviz. It's a little bit spartan,
> > but it works. It's just you can't easily make pedigree using graphviz
> > the way you would, if you could (how to edit look of that graph?).
> > So, it's just an idea, I'm not a programmer myself, is it possible to
> > make reports layouts more editable?

Getting GraphViz options that are useful for a large variety of databases
(large, small, wide, narrow pedigrees), requires a lot of experimenting and
and just changing the order of nodes in the graph can produce completely
diffferent looking graph, so getting a set of good GraphViz options and
their values is a lot of effort.


> When I began using Gramps, I had a similar problem.
>
> The solution, for me, was to produce Graphviz code, like you suggest.
>
> I am somewhat of a programmer, so I then wrote scripts to modify the dot
> files.  The scripts got a little more complicated than I would like,
> but they produce EXACTLY the graph I want.
>
> It would be nice if the Gramps code generator would allow the selection,
> in Gramps, of many of the graphviz parameters.  Parameters like
> coloring, spacing, node geometry, and so on.  But, it is probably
> easier to just do this kind of manipulation in scripts outside of
> Gramps.

No, it should be pretty easy to do in Gramps.   Just post:
- the options and value ranges you're interested about
- a good default value for each option, and
- some examples of how the GraphViz outputs will look/differ
and I could look at it.

(Or maybe Alex if I'm too slow to respond? :-))


> What exact changes to the graphviz graphs would you like?
>
> A lot of changes to the graphs can be done with very simple bash
> scripts, after Gramps produces the graph.

ATM the main problem with GraphViz is the font selection.

There are two bad choices:
- Default font:
  + No problems with layout
  - Doesn't support Unicode, just latin1
- GNU Unicode font
  - Text can go over their node borders (problem with font metrics?)
  + Supports about all characters


        - Eero


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Re: gramps reports layouts and polish translation

wb-3
In reply to this post by Don Allingham
I just realized that I tried to send this to the list, and only sent it
to Don Allingham.  Twice.  So, here it is:

--------

On Sunday December 25 2005 12:49, you wrote:
> Actually, I think we would all like to see what you have done. If you
> could post your modified graphviz output using the sample database,
> it would show us your ideas. (under "Help", select "Open Example
> Database").

I will do that, but it would not be as instructive, I think, as
outlining the modifications I do (by script) to the .dot files.

I publish some of my family graphs at
http://personal.vallnet.com/~someguy/

See them for examples.

To get just what you want, modifying the dot files is the only way to
go.  Whatever the developers do, DO NOT remove the ability to produce
dot files.

Some useful options for processing the dot files are:

1.  Put the graph in black and white, without having to run Gramps to
generate another report.  Females are indicated by rounded node
geometry (a rounded box).  Makes it easier to print on my old black &
white printer.

2.  Adjusting the weights of the edges.  I can make a graph collect all
of the children of parents close together (which I prefer), or to
collect married individuals close together.  By default, all edges are
equally important.

3.  Adjust the scale of the output.

4.  Adjust the physical dimensions of the output.

5.  Adjust the rank and node separation distances.

6.  Allow the sorting of the output nodes by birth date and name.  This
tends to lead to a more orderly graph.  The dot utility does not
guarantee to keep nodes in order, but it tends to.  When you have 75 or
 100 people in a generation, this matters.

7.  Allow the highlighting in red of all families that don't make sense,
like families with 3 or more married spouses.  Or children who are
natural children of two marriages.  This happens a lot when a GEDCOM
file is imported, as was discussed on the mailing list last week.

8.  Adjust the page size of the output (other than the standard sizes
defined in ghostscript).  This lets me print a large graph on a
continuous feed dot-matrix printer.  It also lets me put a graph on one
huge PDF file.  Then, I can bring it to Kinko's and print it on their
big printer.

9.  Allow highlighting of one node (usually the home individual) by
making that node a different color or shape.

10.  Allow the setting of all dot file parameters (like center, ratio,
rankdir, and the ones mentioned elsewhere in this message).

11.  Add legends for each graph with the individual counts and copyright
announcements and such.

12.  Allow the selection of the direction of the graph (rankdir=rl and
rotate=0) without having to run another report from Gramps.  I like
time (and descent) to run from left to right and the display to be
horizontal.

13.  Something I never was able to do to the graphviz graph -- to add
information from the Gramps database that was not originally included
in the graph.  For instance, a picture or date AND location.

P.S.  I have attached two dot files that represent the entire example
database.  One is original, and the other is modified by a script I
commonly use.  To see them, in bash, do:

   display <(dot -Tps example.dot) &
   display <(dot -Tps example.dot.mydot) &

                                -- Wayne Bergeron
--
        Scorched Earth Party: Fighting for a different
        America.

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Re: gramps reports layouts and polish translation

Julio Sánchez-2
2005/12/27, wb <[hidden email]>:

> I publish some of my family graphs at
> http://personal.vallnet.com/~someguy/

Interesting, if I understood that right, that would make you a distant
relative of my wife, since I think she is descended from one of
Charles V great-great-great-grandfathers.

I also see that you graphs are large as mine, it is good for setting
the context, since what works for 200 hundred boxes does not work
necessarily for 2000.

> Some useful options for processing the dot files are:
>
> 1.  Put the graph in black and white, without having to run Gramps to
> generate another report.  Females are indicated by rounded node
> geometry (a rounded box).  Makes it easier to print on my old black &
> white printer.
>
> 2.  Adjusting the weights of the edges.  I can make a graph collect all
> of the children of parents close together (which I prefer), or to
> collect married individuals close together.  By default, all edges are
> equally important.

In my trials, I never got satisfying results with this.  But I guess
it has more to do with the kind of graphs that interest me, that are
from the 'family as stack' variety.  I did a partial reimplementation
of it, but it is still has some gotchas.  I should have another look
at it.

> 3.  Adjust the scale of the output.
>
> 4.  Adjust the physical dimensions of the output.
>
> 5.  Adjust the rank and node separation distances.

No objection on any of these.

> 6.  Allow the sorting of the output nodes by birth date and name.  This
> tends to lead to a more orderly graph.  The dot utility does not
> guarantee to keep nodes in order, but it tends to.  When you have 75 or
>  100 people in a generation, this matters.

Ah, yes.  This is the major gripe.  What I did was playing with
ordering=in and ordering=out.  It works rather well for mostly flat
graphs, e.g. ancestor or descendant graphs.  But many graphs I like
are variations of 'having a common ancestor with' that are quickly
nonplanar.  In this case, the result with default parameters is
aesthetically pleasant, but makes no sense form a genealogy point of
view.  Playing with ordering (=in or =out) and astute ordering of the
input dot file (I experimented with several methods for this) helps in
achieving interesting results, but in the end may be uglier.  In
particular, I hate long lines from one side of the graph to the other
when they are caused by silly node placement.  They are more common if
you don't let graphviz do its thing.  Graphviz is a vengative thing,
may seem to oblige but will make you pay for it.

In the end, I suspect that the most effective way to handle this would
be for graphviz not to change edge ordering unless necessary.  
Another possible improvement: have edges respect the order even if
boxes themselves do not.  I mean, the edges leave the parents in birth
order, even if they cross each other later.  Currently, edge order
seems pretty random.

> 7.  Allow the highlighting in red of all families that don't make sense,
> like families with 3 or more married spouses.  Or children who are
> natural children of two marriages.  This happens a lot when a GEDCOM
> file is imported, as was discussed on the mailing list last week.
>
> 8.  Adjust the page size of the output (other than the standard sizes
> defined in ghostscript).  This lets me print a large graph on a
> continuous feed dot-matrix printer.  It also lets me put a graph on one
> huge PDF file.  Then, I can bring it to Kinko's and print it on their
> big printer.

You cannot put a graph on a huge PDF file.  As far as  know, 3240 dots
is the limit.  You may view it well, but some print shops will not.
Last summer I had this problem printing a 1,5m x 1,5m graph, it would
end up truncated.  I had to resort to svg output.  Unfortunately for
svg you need Unicode fonts, while PostScript output seems to require
Latin1.  Argh...

> 9.  Allow highlighting of one node (usually the home individual) by
> making that node a different color or shape.

On this, I implemented a couple of related concepts.  First,
color-code edges.  Here the idea was to give a different color to each
agnatic lineage, the set of people descending from a common ancestor
by a pure paternal descent line.  In hand-drawn trees, they tend to do
this by changing the leave decoration used for the different tree
branches.  It is very good for getting orientation on a large graph.

Second, highlight (bolden) the lines leading to some distinguished
person (typically the person for whome the tree is printed, usually
you or one of your children) so that at each family, you see quickly
which child is the distinguished person descended from.

These two changes allow moving up and down the tree by using easy visual clues.

> 10.  Allow the setting of all dot file parameters (like center, ratio,
> rankdir, and the ones mentioned elsewhere in this message).
>
> 11.  Add legends for each graph with the individual counts and copyright
> announcements and such.

Oh, yes, I'd love that.  I had a quick look on how to do it and did
not find an obvious way.

> 12.  Allow the selection of the direction of the graph (rankdir=rl and
> rotate=0) without having to run another report from Gramps.  I like
> time (and descent) to run from left to right and the display to be
> horizontal.
>
> 13.  Something I never was able to do to the graphviz graph -- to add
> information from the Gramps database that was not originally included
> in the graph.  For instance, a picture or date AND location.

I think there should be demand for this.  Of course, if you want to
have photos, you have to be more conservative with your graph or they
won't be visible,

Also another thing I did was to improve the abbreviated date display.
Currently, you can have either full dates or just the year, but in the
latter case you will just get the begginining year in a range or span
and no indication on whether the year is exact or is only orientative.
 I implemented a method to handle better the year-only case.

> P.S.  I have attached two dot files that represent the entire example
> database.  One is original, and the other is modified by a script I
> commonly use.  To see them, in bash, do:
>
>    display <(dot -Tps example.dot) &
>    display <(dot -Tps example.dot.mydot) &

I did not look at them yet, I will later.

Regards,

Julio


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Re: gramps reports layouts and polish translation

Alexandre Prokoudine
On 12/27/05, Julio Sanchez wrote:

> > I publish some of my family graphs at
> > http://personal.vallnet.com/~someguy/
>
> Interesting, if I understood that right, that would make you a distant
> relative of my wife, since I think she is descended from one of
> Charles V great-great-great-grandfathers.

Remember this day, guys. This is the first step to Google Genealogy -
another ultimate service to find relatives and ancestors on the Web :)

Now, seriously, this is even more interesting, because the more people
publish their genealogy reports, the more common relatives will be
found.

Alexandre


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Re: gramps reports layouts and polish translation

wb-3
On Tuesday December 27 2005 00:47, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:
> Now, seriously, this is even more interesting, because the more
> people publish their genealogy reports, the more common relatives
> will be found.

I'm not very experienced at genealogy, but there are a LOT of data
quality problems with internet-published genealogical data.  In the
short time I have done this, I have found contradictory, incomplete,
and just plain wrong information.

Many times in the last few months, I wished that Google would get into
that business and beat this data into shape.

If you can't verify information at the source, you can build a big
database, and have no confidence in it at all.  Beside that, few people
are willing to publish their databases (like GED files).  Most want to
present pretty webpages, which are sometimes worse than nothing for  
researching your heritage.  Not many people want to 'release' their
information for free.  They do want to impress you with their
cleverness at researching all of that information.

                        -- WB
--
        Opera is an advanced form of yodeling.
       
                -- Brian Eno



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Re: gramps reports layouts and polish translation

wb-3
In reply to this post by Julio Sánchez-2
On Tuesday December 27 2005 00:38, Julio Sanchez wrote:
> 2005/12/27, wb <[hidden email]>:
> > I publish some of my family graphs at
> > http://personal.vallnet.com/~someguy/
>
> Interesting, if I understood that right, that would make you a
> distant relative of my wife, since I think she is descended from one
> of Charles V great-great-great-grandfathers.

I don't put great trust in my data from that far back.  All of that I
received from GEDCOM files available on the net, and I have no estimate
of its' reliability.

<snip>

> You cannot put a graph on a huge PDF file.  As far as  know, 3240
> dots is the limit.  You may view it well, but some print shops will
> not. Last summer I had this problem printing a 1,5m x 1,5m graph, it
> would end up truncated.  I had to resort to svg output.
> Unfortunately for svg you need Unicode fonts, while PostScript output
> seems to require Latin1.  Argh...

Really...  I did not know of any such arbitrary limit.  I noticed that
Windows machines could not display some graphs in PDF format, and Linux
machines could.  I attributed it to low-quality Microsoft
implementation.  I have also taken large graphs to a print shop and
they were able to load them (into a Windows system) and print them on a
commercial printer.  I just assumed that they had larger disks and
memory than most home users.

<snip>

> On this, I implemented a couple of related concepts.  First,
> color-code edges.  Here the idea was to give a different color to
> each agnatic lineage, the set of people descending from a common
> ancestor by a pure paternal descent line.  In hand-drawn trees, they
> tend to do this by changing the leave decoration used for the
> different tree branches.  It is very good for getting orientation on
> a large graph.
>
> Second, highlight (bolden) the lines leading to some distinguished
> person (typically the person for whome the tree is printed, usually
> you or one of your children) so that at each family, you see quickly
> which child is the distinguished person descended from.

I will have to consider these ideas.

> > 11.  Add legends for each graph with the individual counts and
> > copyright announcements and such.
>
> Oh, yes, I'd love that.  I had a quick look on how to do it and did
> not find an obvious way.

From the included dot file:

labelloc=bottom;
labeljust=left;
label="(42 people)\n(C) 2005 by Wayne
Bergeron\nhttp://personal.vallnet.com/someguy/\[hidden email]";

It is a pain to format the labels into the dot file, but they print
well.

--
        If lightning is the anger of the gods, the
        gods are concerned mostly with trees.
       
                - - Lao Tse



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Re: gramps reports layouts and polish translation

Jim Winfrey-2
In reply to this post by wb-3
wb wrote:

>On Tuesday December 27 2005 00:47, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:
>  
>
>>Now, seriously, this is even more interesting, because the more
>>people publish their genealogy reports, the more common relatives
>>will be found.
>>    
>>
>
>I'm not very experienced at genealogy, but there are a LOT of data
>quality problems with internet-published genealogical data.  In the
>short time I have done this, I have found contradictory, incomplete,
>and just plain wrong information.
>
>Many times in the last few months, I wished that Google would get into
>that business and beat this data into shape.
>
>If you can't verify information at the source, you can build a big
>database, and have no confidence in it at all.  Beside that, few people
>are willing to publish their databases (like GED files).  Most want to
>present pretty webpages, which are sometimes worse than nothing for  
>researching your heritage.  Not many people want to 'release' their
>information for free.  They do want to impress you with their
>cleverness at researching all of that information.
>
> -- WB
>  
>
A couple of genealogy programs have built in IGI search capabilities.  
The results just from within the Family Search database have numerous
errors.  You can get 10 hits on a person and it will have 6 different
birth dates.  The problem, I think, is that people learn to use on line
databases before they learn to be genealogists.  They make assumptions,
blindly copy others errors, make errors on their own and occasionally
deliberately change the facts to make the person "fit".  I hope Gramps
will remain a tool to manage and report data and not try to become the
Family Tree Maker of Unix bases OPs.

Jim


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Re: gramps reports layouts and polish translation

Steve Hall-4
In reply to this post by pielgrzym

  [Perhaps a thread for the users list instead of here?]

From: wb, Dec 27, 2005 9:58 AM
>
> I'm not very experienced at genealogy, but there are a LOT of data
> quality problems with internet-published genealogical data.  In the
> short time I have done this, I have found contradictory, incomplete,
> and just plain wrong information.

Yes, the internet has not helped at all with data reliability. It is
still up to each researcher to value the data and to build a case
based on that interpretation.

> Many times in the last few months, I wished that Google would get
> into that business and beat this data into shape.

Google can not establish good information from bad. At best, it
prioritizes info based on how users value it, but it can not resolve
resolution beyond what it has.

> If you can't verify information at the source, you can build a big
> database, and have no confidence in it at all.  

Exactly!

> Beside that, few people are willing to publish their databases (like
> GED files). Most want to present pretty webpages, which are
> sometimes worse than nothing for researching your heritage.

Totally agreed. I prefer to find data in newspaper-boring websites, it
tells me the researcher is concerned about their research, not
presentation.

> Not many people want to 'release' their information for free.

Free GED files are nearly useless, most times they are assembled from
others. What is most important is having primary evidence. Scans of
actual documents are invaluable, and verbatim transcriptions almost as
good (as long as I trust the recorder!). But how often have you been
to a genealogy website that offers images of important primary
documents?

> They do want to impress you with their cleverness at researching all
> of that information.

I think it's more naivety. It takes a while in the trenches to begin
to recognize what is valuable and how to present it as such. But it is
easy to press a button and spew questionable data all over the web.


--
Steve Hall  [ digitect mindspring com ]
:: My Hall Genealogy
::   http://www.mindspring.com/~steve_hall/trees/hall/





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Re: gramps reports layouts and polish translation

Don Allingham
In reply to this post by Jim Winfrey-2
Don't worry. I don't see any major change of direction.

Many people request features like "Be a web based program so all my
family can enter information into the database". The only problem is
they do not think of the quality of the results.

Give Aunt Martha access to change things in your database, and she may
remember that "Cousin Harold got sick and died 50 years ago, and Cousin
Louise said he died of Ebola." Do you want her changing your data based
off an old memory of what she thinks someone once said? Or would you
prefer to have a bit more proof?

Every genealogist has their own level of required proof. And it is up to
every genealogist to decide what that level is. Pulling data from the
internet and assuming it is true is probably even less reliable that
allowing a novice family member directly edit your data.

Don

On Tue, 2005-12-27 at 12:20 -0500, Jim Winfrey wrote:

> wb wrote:
>
> >On Tuesday December 27 2005 00:47, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:
> >  
> >
> >>Now, seriously, this is even more interesting, because the more
> >>people publish their genealogy reports, the more common relatives
> >>will be found.
> >>    
> >>
> >
> >I'm not very experienced at genealogy, but there are a LOT of data
> >quality problems with internet-published genealogical data.  In the
> >short time I have done this, I have found contradictory, incomplete,
> >and just plain wrong information.
> >
> >Many times in the last few months, I wished that Google would get into
> >that business and beat this data into shape.
> >
> >If you can't verify information at the source, you can build a big
> >database, and have no confidence in it at all.  Beside that, few people
> >are willing to publish their databases (like GED files).  Most want to
> >present pretty webpages, which are sometimes worse than nothing for  
> >researching your heritage.  Not many people want to 'release' their
> >information for free.  They do want to impress you with their
> >cleverness at researching all of that information.
> >
> > -- WB
> >  
> >
> A couple of genealogy programs have built in IGI search capabilities.  
> The results just from within the Family Search database have numerous
> errors.  You can get 10 hits on a person and it will have 6 different
> birth dates.  The problem, I think, is that people learn to use on line
> databases before they learn to be genealogists.  They make assumptions,
> blindly copy others errors, make errors on their own and occasionally
> deliberately change the facts to make the person "fit".  I hope Gramps
> will remain a tool to manage and report data and not try to become the
> Family Tree Maker of Unix bases OPs.
>
> Jim
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
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>
--
Don Allingham <[hidden email]>

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Re: gramps reports layouts and polish translation

Julio Sánchez-2
In reply to this post by wb-3
2005/12/27, wb <[hidden email]>:

> I don't put great trust in my data from that far back.  All of that I
> received from GEDCOM files available on the net, and I have no estimate
> of its' reliability.

Well, trust is not a binary quantity.  My data come from a combination
of primary sources and books, that have not checked only in part
against primary sources.  The 4 or 5 oldest generations needed to get
the connection mentioned are harder, but I have at least two
different, independent, lines that lead to the same conclusion.  I
have reasonable confidence in it, but I am *always* open to be proven
wrong and I check primary sources as I find the chance.

> Really...  I did not know of any such arbitrary limit.  I noticed that
> Windows machines could not display some graphs in PDF format, and Linux
> machines could.  I attributed it to low-quality Microsoft
> implementation.  I have also taken large graphs to a print shop and
> they were able to load them (into a Windows system) and print them on a
> commercial printer.  I just assumed that they had larger disks and
> memory than most home users.

The shop I went to, they could open the file and see it on screen, but
the printed output was truncated.  It may have to do with the program
used to open and print the file.  The moral is that it cannot be
depended on.

Now that I come to that, in the experiments we did at the print shop
before I settled for SVG (that had me repeat the output from GRAMPS
with Unicode fonts this time), I discovered that the bitmap output
from Graphviz was not very helpful.  It seems that it maps pixel to
printer points without any option for resolution, so the result is
that of printing to a 72 dpi printer.  The result is ugly.

> From the included dot file:
>
> labelloc=bottom;
> labeljust=left;
> label="(42 people)\n(C) 2005 by Wayne
> Bergeron\nhttp://personal.vallnet.com/someguy/\[hidden email]";
>
> It is a pain to format the labels into the dot file, but they print
> well.

Thanks for the tip.

Julio


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Re: gramps reports layouts and polish translation

Julio Sánchez-2
In reply to this post by Steve Hall-4
2005/12/27, Steve Hall <[hidden email]>:

> Free GED files are nearly useless, most times they are assembled from
> others. What is most important is having primary evidence. Scans of
> actual documents are invaluable, and verbatim transcriptions almost as
> good (as long as I trust the recorder!). But how often have you been
> to a genealogy website that offers images of important primary
> documents?

It is not very common.  I do, though.  My website contains PDF files
with scans of all the primary sources I could get a copy of (some I
don't have copy of).  For a few other primary sources, I have
transcripts as PDF or OpenDocument texts.  In other cases, including
some secondary sources, I keep extracts in the text part of the source
references.  In any case, you can easily extract parts of my data in
GEDCOM format.

My website, however, is restricted to family members.  You have to
decide how indiscreet you want to be with your data.  You can be
prudent and withhold information.  That's what many people want.  But
my site contains private data about living people and you have to be
careful with what you do.  No program really matched my requirements,
so I ended up using phpGedView with a custom privacy module and a few
changes.  I use that for publication only, my primary database is
GRAMPS.

Before getting access, you have to convince me that you are family
and, then, you only get to access your part of the tree.  So it is
useless for supporting the research of others.  What I do, is I
publish part of my research index on www.GeneaNet.org detailing the
surnames and places researched.  GeneaNet can take your GEDCOM and
build the index from that, but I did not like the result and I built a
GRAMPS export plugin for that.  Too full of idiosyncrasy for general
use.  In particular, it requires an infrastructure for place handling
that may be hard to maintain inside of GRAMPS (it wants country and
region codes that need to be filled correctly for optimum results).
I'll have to give a thought to this.

The GeneaNet index lets others find possible points of coincidence,
get in contact and exchange data.  I have had thoughts on publishing
openly selected information about long deceased people, but I never
found the time.

This has nothing to do with not wanting others to benefit from my
work. Nothing further from the truth.  I'd love to be more open
because it would help me.  But I cannot.  At least for now.

Regards,

Julio


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Re: GraphViz report improvements (was: gramps reports layouts and polish translation)

Eero Tamminen-3
In reply to this post by wb-3
Hi,

I'm sorry it took so long to answer (after Xmas I got more busy
than I had thought).

On Tuesday 27 December 2005 01:20, wb wrote:

> I just realized that I tried to send this to the list, and only sent it
> to Don Allingham.  Twice.  So, here it is:
>
> --------
>
> On Sunday December 25 2005 12:49, you wrote:
> > Actually, I think we would all like to see what you have done. If you
> > could post your modified graphviz output using the sample database,
> > it would show us your ideas. (under "Help", select "Open Example
> > Database").
>
> I will do that, but it would not be as instructive, I think, as
> outlining the modifications I do (by script) to the .dot files.
>
> I publish some of my family graphs at
> http://personal.vallnet.com/~someguy/
>
> See them for examples.
>
> To get just what you want, modifying the dot files is the only way to
> go.  Whatever the developers do, DO NOT remove the ability to produce
> dot files.
>
> Some useful options for processing the dot files are:
>
> 1.  Put the graph in black and white, without having to run Gramps to
> generate another report.  Females are indicated by rounded node
> geometry (a rounded box).  Makes it easier to print on my old black &
> white printer.

This should be easy to do as the shape is set only in one place for
the output.  If this would be done for the outline mode, even no additional
UI/CLI options would be needed.



> 2.  Adjusting the weights of the edges.  I can make a graph collect all
> of the children of parents close together (which I prefer), or to
> collect married individuals close together.  By default, all edges are
> equally important.

If this is not a global option, I think this would require more/too
significant changes to the code.


> 3.  Adjust the scale of the output.

You can already set from the page settings decide to how many pages
the output will be layed out.  Or did you mean something else?


> 4.  Adjust the physical dimensions of the output.

You can already do this from paper settings.


> 5.  Adjust the rank and node separation distances.

You can already select rank from LR & RL (horizontal / vertical direction).


> 6.  Allow the sorting of the output nodes by birth date and name.  This
> tends to lead to a more orderly graph.  The dot utility does not
> guarantee to keep nodes in order, but it tends to.  When you have 75 or
>  100 people in a generation, this matters.

This would also require rewriting the report code.
I think this might be easier to do in post-processing.


> 7.  Allow the highlighting in red of all families that don't make sense,
> like families with 3 or more married spouses.  Or children who are
> natural children of two marriages.  This happens a lot when a GEDCOM
> file is imported, as was discussed on the mailing list last week.

This would also require quite a bit of code massage, but as I also use
GraphViz for verifying what I input (mainly to see whether I have
unconnected people or missing e.g. marriage dates), I can see the value
of this.

However, Gramps already has facility for checking that what's in the
database (ages etc) makes sense.  What data would be easier to validate
with GraphViz report than with "verify the database" tool?


> 8.  Adjust the page size of the output (other than the standard sizes
> defined in ghostscript).  This lets me print a large graph on a
> continuous feed dot-matrix printer.  It also lets me put a graph on one
> huge PDF file.  Then, I can bring it to Kinko's and print it on their
> big printer.

If you select "Custom size", you can define the paper size.


> 9.  Allow highlighting of one node (usually the home individual) by
> making that node a different color or shape.

How it's decided which persons should be highlighted?
Active person?  Home person?  Bookmarked persons?
(I mean, it cannot be all of these :))


> 10.  Allow the setting of all dot file parameters (like center, ratio,
> rankdir, and the ones mentioned elsewhere in this message).

Rankdir is already the Graph direction option and I'm not sure why
you would not want your graph to be centered?

For the rest, could you come up with:
- Options from which people can choose
- names for these options which make sense also for people
  who don't know how to use GraphViz?
- Default value for the option


> 11.  Add legends for each graph with the individual counts and copyright
> announcements and such.

Sounds good, especially as you had an example of this. :-)


> 12.  Allow the selection of the direction of the graph (rankdir=rl and
> rotate=0) without having to run another report from Gramps.  I like
> time (and descent) to run from left to right and the display to be
> horizontal.

What means "without having to run another report from Gramps"?

> 13.  Something I never was able to do to the graphviz graph -- to add
> information from the Gramps database that was not originally included
> in the graph.  For instance, a picture or date AND location.

Do you mean that you would want additional options for what information
is shown about the people?


> P.S.  I have attached two dot files that represent the entire example
> database.  One is original, and the other is modified by a script I
> commonly use.  To see them, in bash, do:
>
>    display <(dot -Tps example.dot) &
>    display <(dot -Tps example.dot.mydot) &

Thanks!

(I'm not sure when I have time to look into these, but at least
1, 10 & 11 should not be any problem.)


        - Eero


> -- Wayne Bergeron


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Re: GraphViz report improvements (was: gramps reports layouts and polish translation)

Eero Tamminen-3
Hi,

> > 1.  Put the graph in black and white, without having to run Gramps to
> > generate another report.  Females are indicated by rounded node
> > geometry (a rounded box).  Makes it easier to print on my old black &
> > white printer.
>
> This should be easy to do as the shape is set only in one place for
> the output.  If this would be done for the outline mode, even no
> additional UI/CLI options would be needed.

Should the outlines be different also when the boxes are colored?
Attached is output of the outline mode (I started looking into GraphViz
plugin modifications).


> > 12.  Allow the selection of the direction of the graph (rankdir=rl and
> > rotate=0) without having to run another report from Gramps.  I like
> > time (and descent) to run from left to right and the display to be
> > horizontal.

The portrait/landscape option sets the rotation.


        - Eero

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Re: GraphViz report improvements

Eero Tamminen-3
In reply to this post by Eero Tamminen-3
Hi,

On Thursday 05 January 2006 00:13, Eero Tamminen wrote:
> > 2.  Adjusting the weights of the edges.  I can make a graph collect all
> > of the children of parents close together (which I prefer), or to
> > collect married individuals close together.  By default, all edges are
> > equally important.
...
> > 6.  Allow the sorting of the output nodes by birth date and name.  This
> > tends to lead to a more orderly graph.  The dot utility does not
> > guarantee to keep nodes in order, but it tends to.

Does the "ordering" GraphViz keyword have anything to do with this?


> > When you have 75 or  100 people in a generation, this matters.
>
> This would also require rewriting the report code.
> I think this might be easier to do in post-processing.

I actually started to think about re-writing the GraphViz plugin data
collection & output parts.  Currently they write out the data while they
traverse through the Gramps database.

If I change that to three steps:
- first collect all the relevant data to a graph,
- then generate sort indeces, and
- lastly output the data,
I can do things like:
- sort the output like you requested in 6)
- go in either direction, from children to parents or vice verse
- de-couple code traversing the Gramps database and outputting
  the stuff, this makes it easier to change
It might also help if I'll look into 2).

Downside will be that it takes more memory, but people shouldn't
be drawing graphs of more than a couple of hundred people, so I
don't think this is a problem (and my StatisticsChart module is much
worse in this respect :)).


        - Eero


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Re: GraphViz report improvements

wb-3
In reply to this post by pielgrzym
On Thursday January 12 2006 15:06, you wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Wednesday 11 January 2006 23:52, wb wrote:
> > > Which dot shape is "rounded box"?  At least my "dot" man page
> > > doesn't seem to mention that.
> >
> > In a graph node, you can specify "shape=box, style=rounded".
>
> If I have also "style=filled", the last style overrides previous one.
> How I get both rounded & filled styles?

The documentation in dotguide.pdf implies that a node can be both
rounded and filled, but that does not work for me either.  I did not
realize that until now.

Would you like me to write an error report to the maintainers of dot?  
Whoever they are.

--
        The state has not the right to leave every man free to
        profess and embrace whatever religion he may desire.
       
                -- Pope Pius IX


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Re: GraphViz report improvements

Eero Tamminen-3
In reply to this post by Eero Tamminen-3
Hi,

On Friday 13 January 2006 07:42, Julio Sanchez wrote:

> > Does the "ordering" GraphViz keyword have anything to do with this?
>
> Ordering plays a major role in this.  If you have no ordering,
> Graphviz just output nodes as it sees fit, and the order nodes appear
> on input is not respected.  If you use ordering=in (or ordering=out,
> that works even if documentation does not suggest so), then Graphviz
> will preserve, if possible, the partial ordering within each child or
> parent list (depending on which ordering you chose)
>
> But in this case it is absolutely required that you feed the input
> sorted.  Funnily enough, edges are not sorted, the leave the common
> node in random order.  I find this confusing.
>
> What I have found is that aesthetically, the output when no ordering
> is specified is more pleasant that when you try to force the hand of
> Graphviz.

Ok, let's forget that then...


> > I actually started to think about re-writing the GraphViz plugin data
> > collection & output parts.  Currently they write out the data while
> > they traverse through the Gramps database.
> >
> > If I change that to three steps:
> > - first collect all the relevant data to a graph,
> > - then generate sort indeces, and
> > - lastly output the data,
> > I can do things like:
> > - sort the output like you requested in 6)
> > - go in either direction, from children to parents or vice verse
> > - de-couple code traversing the Gramps database and outputting
> >   the stuff, this makes it easier to change
>
> Last year I made many changes to this plugin, but then I did not
> complete the work, I think you should have a look at what I did, that
> includes a sorting function.
>
> Actually I was just trying to reimplement families as stacks, that was
> lost in the transition to 2.0, so most of the changes are only active
> on that part.
>
> I attach the changes I did, just in case they can inspire you.  Mind
> some of the changes are just cruft, leftovers from prior attempts.

Could you mail an example dot file of what the stack option meant?


        - Eero


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