making NBSP visible

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
13 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

making NBSP visible

Paul Franklin-5
I am having a private conversation with a user, and he
has requested that gramps make the non-breaking space
character visible, so he can see it (between given names
which should stay together, be kept together by gramps).

He wants us to "display those NBSP like making them grey
similar to what libreOffice do, or else how can I check whether
I put SP or NBSP."

So I am asking you GUI people if this can be done?  Maybe
we could modify the name displayer?  Is that used in views
and gramplets and other things?  Would some other approach
work, if not?

I would guess that sort of thing would be built into Gtk, already,
but maybe we need to enable it or something?

Should I file a bug report (since it's not visible now)?

Thanks.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
_______________________________________________
Gramps-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: making NBSP visible

GRAMPS - Dev mailing list
Funny, it makes me remember issue #9242

https://gramps-project.org/bugs/view.php?id=9242


--------------------------------------------
En date de : Mer 5.7.17, Paul Franklin <[hidden email]> a écrit :

 Objet: [Gramps-devel] making NBSP visible
 À: [hidden email]
 Date: Mercredi 5 juillet 2017, 17h57
 
 I am having a private conversation with a
 user, and he
 has requested that gramps make the
 non-breaking space
 character visible, so he can see it
 (between given names
 which should stay together, be kept
 together by gramps).
 
 He wants us to "display those NBSP like
 making them grey
 similar to what libreOffice do, or else
 how can I check whether
 I put SP or NBSP."
 
 So I am asking you GUI people if this
 can be done?  Maybe
 we could modify the name
 displayer?  Is that used in views
 and gramplets and other things? 
 Would some other approach
 work, if not?
 
 I would guess that sort of thing would
 be built into Gtk, already,
 but maybe we need to enable it or
 something?
 
 Should I file a bug report (since it's
 not visible now)?
 
 Thanks.
 
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Check out the vibrant tech community on
 one of the world's most
 engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
 _______________________________________________
 Gramps-devel mailing list
 [hidden email]
 https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-devel
 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
_______________________________________________
Gramps-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: making NBSP visible

Paul Franklin-5
On 7/6/17, jerome <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Funny, it makes me remember issue #9242
>
> https://gramps-project.org/bugs/view.php?id=9242

Yes.

I would say that we need to have a preference option,
initially enabled, which enables the display of non-printing
characters whenever names are shown in the GUI.

Besides the NBSP and linefeed, it should probably also
show the obvious ones, carriage-return and tab at least.

Each such character should have its own unique glyph,
and I would suggest that we use the same ones as some
widely-available program already uses, LibreOffice or Word
for instance.  (I'd vote for Word myself, since I've thought
for a long time that most of our users are on Windows.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
_______________________________________________
Gramps-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: making NBSP visible

paul womack
In reply to this post by Paul Franklin-5
Paul Franklin wrote:
> I am having a private conversation with a user, and he
> has requested that gramps make the non-breaking space
> character visible, so he can see it (between given names
> which should stay together, be kept together by gramps).

Could you expand on the use(s) and behaviours this user
wants for NBSP, and what problems it will solve?

  BugBear


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
_______________________________________________
Gramps-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: making NBSP visible

GRAMPS - Dev mailing list
In reply to this post by Paul Franklin-5
>  I'd vote for Word myself, since I've thought for a long time that most of our users are on Windows.

Users under Windows OS should always use all Microsoft products like Word ?
As far as I know LibreOffice is available for Windows OS too ?

J.

--------------------------------------------
En date de : Jeu 6.7.17, Paul Franklin <[hidden email]> a écrit :

 Objet: Re: Re : [Gramps-devel] making NBSP visible
 À: "jerome" <[hidden email]>, [hidden email]
 Cc: [hidden email]
 Date: Jeudi 6 juillet 2017, 19h34
 
 On 7/6/17, jerome <[hidden email]>
 wrote:
 > Funny, it makes me remember issue #9242
 >
 > https://gramps-project.org/bugs/view.php?id=9242
 
 Yes.
 
 I would say that we need to have a preference
 option,
 initially enabled, which enables the
 display of non-printing
 characters whenever
 names are shown in the GUI.
 
 Besides the NBSP and linefeed, it should
 probably also
 show the obvious ones,
 carriage-return and tab at least.
 
 Each such character should have its own unique
 glyph,
 and I would suggest that we use the
 same ones as some
 widely-available program
 already uses, LibreOffice or Word
 for
 instance.  (I'd vote for Word myself, since I've
 thought
 for a long time that most of our
 users are on Windows.)
 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
_______________________________________________
Gramps-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: making NBSP visible

Paul Franklin-5
In reply to this post by paul womack
On 7/7/17, paul womack <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Could you expand on the use(s) and behaviours this user
> wants for NBSP, and what problems it will solve?

It has to do with possible naming conventions in different
cultures.  Right now, gramps will break name elements at
a space, perhaps when a name starts near the end of a
line in a report, or in a gramplet.

Let's say the user has a person whose name is entered as
Mary Ellen Nancy Smith, but she is always known as
"Mary Ellen" and not "Mary" nor "Ellen" so the user needs
some way to be able to enter that fact, that parts of a name
are desired to never be broken up, separated.

Another example might be for a man whose name is "Ali
bin Sultan al Faisal" with "al Faisal" being the family name
and "bin Sultan" being his middle name, so he doesn't want
the "bin Sultan" to be broken up by gramps, separated.

That is (as I understand it) the function of a non-breaking
space character, that's what "non-breaking" means.  So (for
instance) a line in a report will never have "Mary" on it and
then "Ellen" on the next line, or a gramplet which lists given
names will have the given name as "Mary Ellen" and not just
"Mary".

You might try a Google search for "non-breaking space" but
I got a lot of instances of such a thing and not very many which
explained it instead, when I tried.  But your mileage may vary.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
_______________________________________________
Gramps-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: making NBSP visible

Paul Franklin-5
In reply to this post by GRAMPS - Dev mailing list
On 7/7/17, jerome <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Users under Windows OS should always use all Microsoft products like Word ?

Yes, that's what they did.  That's why M$ was so successful
and why they made so much money.  And why the EU made them
unbundle IE from Windows years ago (not that it did much good).

> As far as I know LibreOffice is available for Windows OS too ?

I do not feel like having a "linux vs. Windows" discussion, and
diverting this thread from "making a non-breaking space visible",
but I'd be willing to bet money that an honest poll of the average
typical Windows user would show at least 80% have heard of
Word and never heard of LibreOffice or OpenOffice.

A less-extreme example would be an owner of an XXX car who
always has it serviced by an XXX dealer, even though there are
mechanics out there who know about XXX cars too.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
_______________________________________________
Gramps-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: making NBSP visible

John Ralls-2
In reply to this post by Paul Franklin-5

> On Jul 7, 2017, at 10:06 AM, Paul Franklin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On 7/7/17, paul womack <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Could you expand on the use(s) and behaviours this user
>> wants for NBSP, and what problems it will solve?
>
> It has to do with possible naming conventions in different
> cultures.  Right now, gramps will break name elements at
> a space, perhaps when a name starts near the end of a
> line in a report, or in a gramplet.
>
> Let's say the user has a person whose name is entered as
> Mary Ellen Nancy Smith, but she is always known as
> "Mary Ellen" and not "Mary" nor "Ellen" so the user needs
> some way to be able to enter that fact, that parts of a name
> are desired to never be broken up, separated.
>
> Another example might be for a man whose name is "Ali
> bin Sultan al Faisal" with "al Faisal" being the family name
> and "bin Sultan" being his middle name, so he doesn't want
> the "bin Sultan" to be broken up by gramps, separated.
>
> That is (as I understand it) the function of a non-breaking
> space character, that's what "non-breaking" means.  So (for
> instance) a line in a report will never have "Mary" on it and
> then "Ellen" on the next line, or a gramplet which lists given
> names will have the given name as "Mary Ellen" and not just
> "Mary".
>
> You might try a Google search for "non-breaking space" but
> I got a lot of instances of such a thing and not very many which
> explained it instead, when I tried.  But your mileage may vary.

Non-breaking space is code point U+00A0. The only way to enter it on a normal keyboard is the alt-1-6-0 trick (which requires setting a special input method on Macs). Gramps may well respect it when parsing a given name list.

Regards,
John Ralls
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
_______________________________________________
Gramps-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: making NBSP visible

Paul Franklin-5
> Non-breaking space is code point U+00A0.

Yes, I know.

> The only way to enter it on a normal keyboard is the alt-1-6-0
> trick (which requires setting a special input method on Macs).

Well, I think it depends on your o.s., since IIRC some people can
enter it with a ctrl-alt-space.  But how the user will enter it is a
different problem as far as I am concerned, but perhaps related.

> Gramps may well respect it when parsing a given name list.

That's one of my goals (and a bug), but what I'd like to get
help on is how to have gramps show it, perhaps optionally,
how to get gramps to display it (some glyph which the user
will quickly learn -- or already know, if we pick a "standard"
one -- means a non-breaking space).  I'm not a GUI person.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
_______________________________________________
Gramps-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: making NBSP visible

prculley
I'm hardly an expert, but I have done some searching and I cannot find any obvious way to just show nbsp and other hidden punctuation marks using Gtk facilities.

So I expect that we would have to do some work ourselves.  Probably we should look at substituting certain characters with others as the easiest mechanism.

Msoft Word seems to use the following when showing hidden characters:
space: interpunct u+00B7 '·'
nbsp: degree sign, U+00B0 '°'
tab: one of the right arrows U+2192 '→' (this might not be right, it is not an exact match)
paragraph: pilcrow U+00B6 '¶'

I looked at LibreOffice and it appeared to use a colored space for the nbsp; seems this would be more difficult to implement, we would have to use markup type text displays and do a markup in our substitutions.

Just some thoughts.

Paul C.

On Fri, Jul 7, 2017 at 1:31 PM, Paul Franklin <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Non-breaking space is code point U+00A0.

Yes, I know.

> The only way to enter it on a normal keyboard is the alt-1-6-0
> trick (which requires setting a special input method on Macs).

Well, I think it depends on your o.s., since IIRC some people can
enter it with a ctrl-alt-space.  But how the user will enter it is a
different problem as far as I am concerned, but perhaps related.

> Gramps may well respect it when parsing a given name list.

That's one of my goals (and a bug), but what I'd like to get
help on is how to have gramps show it, perhaps optionally,
how to get gramps to display it (some glyph which the user
will quickly learn -- or already know, if we pick a "standard"
one -- means a non-breaking space).  I'm not a GUI person.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
_______________________________________________
Gramps-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-devel


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
_______________________________________________
Gramps-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: making NBSP visible

Paul Franklin-5
On 7/7/17, Paul Culley <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I'm hardly an expert, but I have done some searching and I cannot find any
> obvious way to just show nbsp and other hidden punctuation marks using Gtk
> facilities.

That's too bad.  (I have heard them called "format effectors"
also, but I am not sure that's right.)

> So I expect that we would have to do some work ourselves.  Probably we
> should look at substituting certain characters with others as the easiest
> mechanism.

I could believe that, too.  But I'm guessing we'd only need
to do it to display them, not store them in the DB (or XML).

> Msoft Word seems to use the following when showing hidden characters:
> space: interpunct u+00B7 '·'
> nbsp: degree sign, U+00B0 '°'
> tab: one of the right arrows U+2192 '→' (this might not be right, it is not
> an exact match)
> paragraph: pilcrow U+00B6 '¶'
>
> I looked at LibreOffice and it appeared to use a colored space for the
> nbsp; seems this would be more difficult to implement, we would have to use
> markup type text displays and do a markup in our substitutions.
>
> Just some thoughts.

Thank you for doing the checking.  I appreciate it.

Personally, I will happily accept any solution which
seems possible to implement, and which somehow
gives our users the feedback some might want.  But
I suggest it should be a preference ("show non-printing
characters" maybe, say in Edit=>Preferences=>Display).

I'm not sure about tab being shown as a right-arrow though,
as right-arrow is already used in gramps, somewhere (IIRC).

Does Word show a linefeed?  The bug Jerome cited was a
user copying-and-pasting and including a linefeed accidentally.

Thanks again.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
_______________________________________________
Gramps-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: making NBSP visible

GRAMPS - Dev mailing list
In reply to this post by Paul Franklin-5
Well, does it also mean that Microsoft should buy Gramps (certification/allowed)
for being available under Windows OS ??

Not certain that EU made such distinction for money issues...
EU like money (maybe more than Microsoft!)
Pension funds should rather invest in ECB :-\
:-p

Maybe rather privacy issues?

Most people will never use all features of last version for a program...
So, just need an interpolable specification for their data and keep a
respect for the privacy...

Recently, I looked at "Bureau des légendes" (The Bureau) a TV serie(s),
and people are still using Open Office for sending messages even under
Windows OS. :-\
OK, it is a fiction and maybe also for a fair and clear "non-advertising"! ;-)

Seriously, anyone who has to deal with ANSI encoding know that is was
related to Windows stuff with many design lacks. True, unicode (UTF-8) is supported
by Windows OS since a while, but the problem might be the definition of standards.
.doc, .docx extension are not standards for text edition. Rememner Rich Text Format
(.rtf), FoxPro, MS-DOS, gedcom, etc ...

The concept of "snobbing" user because he is happy to work with something no more
"instable" is maybe a cultural managing, but anyway it seems still more easy to
test data handling between two open programs than a closed system, even
with programs available for free, no? You will still have a cryptic layer with
an inconsistent set of API(s) on Windows products.

J.

--------------------------------------------
En date de : Ven 7.7.17, Paul Franklin <[hidden email]> a écrit :

 Objet: Re: Re : [Gramps-devel] making NBSP visible
 À: "jerome" <[hidden email]>
 Cc: [hidden email], [hidden email]
 Date: Vendredi 7 juillet 2017, 19h18
 
 On 7/7/17, jerome <[hidden email]>
 wrote:
 
 > Users under
 Windows OS should always use all Microsoft products like
 Word ?
 
 Yes, that's what
 they did.  That's why M$ was so successful
 and why they made so much money.  And why the
 EU made them
 unbundle IE from Windows years
 ago (not that it did much good).
 
 > As
 far as I know LibreOffice is available for Windows OS too
 ?
 
 I do not feel like
 having a "linux vs. Windows" discussion, and
 diverting this thread from "making a
 non-breaking space visible",
 but
 I'd be willing to bet money that an honest poll of the
 average
 typical Windows user would show at
 least 80% have heard of
 Word and never heard
 of LibreOffice or OpenOffice.
 
 A less-extreme example would be an owner of an
 XXX car who
 always has it serviced by an XXX
 dealer, even though there are
 mechanics out
 there who know about XXX cars too.
 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
_______________________________________________
Gramps-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: making NBSP visible

GRAMPS - Dev mailing list
In reply to this post by Paul Franklin-5
Thanks.
It makes it clear.


PS : just wanted to avoid some possible feature requests like:
"please, use the same logic as program xxx version 2017.5 (or 2018 beta X project)
for characters replacement", because this might be quickly time dated
or private marked.

J.


--------------------------------------------
En date de : Sam 8.7.17, Paul Culley <[hidden email]> a écrit :

 Objet: Re: [Gramps-devel] making NBSP visible
 À: "Paul Franklin" <[hidden email]>
 Cc: "Gramps Developers" <[hidden email]>
 Date: Samedi 8 juillet 2017, 0h17
 
 I'm
 hardly an expert, but I have done some searching and I
 cannot find any obvious way to just show nbsp and other
 hidden punctuation marks using Gtk facilities.
 
 So I expect that we
 would have to do some work ourselves.  Probably we should
 look at substituting certain characters with others as the
 easiest mechanism.
 
 Msoft Word seems to use the following
 when showing hidden characters:
 space: interpunct u+00B7 '·'
 nbsp: degree sign, U+00B0 '°'
 tab: one of the right arrows
 U+2192 '→'
 (this might not be right, it is not an exact match)
 paragraph: pilcrow U+00B6 '¶'
 
 I looked at
 LibreOffice and it appeared to use a colored space for the
 nbsp; seems this would be more difficult to implement, we
 would have to use markup type text displays and do a markup
 in our substitutions.
 
 Just some thoughts.
 
 Paul C.
 
 On Fri, Jul 7, 2017 at 1:31
 PM, Paul Franklin <[hidden email]>
 wrote:
 > Non-breaking space is code point
 U+00A0.
 
 
 
 Yes, I know.
 
 
 
 > The only way to enter it on a normal keyboard is the
 alt-1-6-0
 
 > trick (which requires setting a special input method on
 Macs).
 
 
 
 Well, I think it depends on your o.s., since IIRC
 some people can
 
 enter it with a ctrl-alt-space.  But how the user will
 enter it is a
 
 different problem as far as I am concerned, but perhaps
 related.
 
 
 
 > Gramps may well respect it when parsing a given name
 list.
 
 
 
 That's one of my goals (and a bug), but what
 I'd like to get
 
 help on is how to have gramps show it, perhaps
 optionally,
 
 how to get gramps to display it (some glyph which the
 user
 
 will quickly learn -- or already know, if we pick a
 "standard"
 
 one -- means a non-breaking space).  I'm not a GUI
 person.
 
 
 
 ------------------------------
 ------------------------------ ------------------
 
 Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the
 world's most
 
 engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
 
 ______________________________ _________________
 
 Gramps-devel mailing list
 
 Gramps-devel@lists.
 sourceforge.net
 
 https://lists.sourceforge.net/
 lists/listinfo/gramps-devel
 
 
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Check out the vibrant tech community on one of
 the world's most
 engaging tech sites,
 Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot_______________________________________________
 Gramps-devel mailing list
 [hidden email]
 https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-devel
 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
_______________________________________________
Gramps-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-devel
Loading...