more Place problems - what to do about intermittent existence?

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more Place problems - what to do about intermittent existence?

Douglas Bainbridge
What should I do about places that exist at several
different times?
I have Poznan Voivodeship, for example, which existed prior
to 1793; it disappeared when annexed by Prussia; was
re-created in 1918/1919; disappeared in 1939; was recreated
in 1945; and was re-fashioned in 1998.

I can't see a good alternative to defining 3 or 4 Poznan
Voivodeship places, with different existence dates; but it's
very messy.
As far as I can see, defining just 1 Place runs into
problems when the Place encloses different sets of places at
different times.

What do others do?

Doug

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Re: more Place problems - what to do about intermittent existence?

Harvey Nimmo
On Sat, 2016-02-13 at 14:53 +0000, Douglas Bainbridge wrote:

> What should I do about places that exist at several
> different times?
> I have Poznan Voivodeship, for example, which existed prior
> to 1793; it disappeared when annexed by Prussia; was
> re-created in 1918/1919; disappeared in 1939; was recreated
> in 1945; and was re-fashioned in 1998.
>
> I can't see a good alternative to defining 3 or 4 Poznan
> Voivodeship places, with different existence dates; but it's
> very messy.
> As far as I can see, defining just 1 Place runs into
> problems when the Place encloses different sets of places at
> different times.
>
> What do others do?
>
> Doug

What do you mean disappeared? wiped out? or did it get another name
during those periods?

Unless I have misunderstood how gramps does it, you could keep
continuity, by using the alternative names (or even 'unknown') during
the 'interim' periods.

Cheers
Harvey



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Re: more Place problems - what to do about intermittent existence?

Simon C. Tremblay
The smallest location does not move, only the entity enclosing it. 

You could set a time period for "enclosed by": for example, create "Poznan Voivodeship" and Poznan (city) and have the city enclosed by "Poznan Voivodeship" from 1320 to 1793, then the city becomes enclosed by Prussia from 1793 to 1921 (or even , South Prussia, Duchy of Warsaw, Grand Duchy of Warsen) then back to 
"Poznan Voivodeship" from 1921 to 1939, "Reichsgau Wartheland" from 39-45, etc. (thanks Wikipedia for the province's timeline)

For my part, I find it too early in my research to track all these territorial changes.  (maybe it's a choice I will regret later...) I'm still focusing on getting proper citations and finding ancestors and date/places of birth here in Québec.

Simon

On 13 February 2016 at 11:02, Harvey Nimmo <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Sat, 2016-02-13 at 14:53 +0000, Douglas Bainbridge wrote:
> What should I do about places that exist at several
> different times?
> I have Poznan Voivodeship, for example, which existed prior
> to 1793; it disappeared when annexed by Prussia; was
> re-created in 1918/1919; disappeared in 1939; was recreated
> in 1945; and was re-fashioned in 1998.
>
> I can't see a good alternative to defining 3 or 4 Poznan
> Voivodeship places, with different existence dates; but it's
> very messy.
> As far as I can see, defining just 1 Place runs into
> problems when the Place encloses different sets of places at
> different times.
>
> What do others do?
>
> Doug

What do you mean disappeared? wiped out? or did it get another name
during those periods?

Unless I have misunderstood how gramps does it, you could keep
continuity, by using the alternative names (or even 'unknown') during
the 'interim' periods.

Cheers
Harvey



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Re: more Place problems - what to do about intermittent existence?

Douglas Bainbridge
In reply to this post by Harvey Nimmo
On 13/02/16 16:02, Harvey Nimmo wrote:

> On Sat, 2016-02-13 at 14:53 +0000, Douglas Bainbridge wrote:
>> What should I do about places that exist at several
>> different times?
>> I have Poznan Voivodeship, for example, which existed prior
>> to 1793; it disappeared when annexed by Prussia; was
>> re-created in 1918/1919; disappeared in 1939; was recreated
>> in 1945; and was re-fashioned in 1998.
>>
>> I can't see a good alternative to defining 3 or 4 Poznan
>> Voivodeship places, with different existence dates; but it's
>> very messy.
>> As far as I can see, defining just 1 Place runs into
>> problems when the Place encloses different sets of places at
>> different times.
>>
>> What do others do?
>>
>> Doug
> What do you mean disappeared? wiped out? or did it get another name
> during those periods?
>
> Unless I have misunderstood how gramps does it, you could keep
> continuity, by using the alternative names (or even 'unknown') during
> the 'interim' periods.
>
> Cheers
> Harvey
Wiped out and recreated again later (from patriotic motives,
I assume).

AFAICT alternative names mean there's only one set of dates
applying to the Name of the Place.

Doug

Doug

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Re: more Place problems - what to do about intermittent existence?

enno
Doug,
> AFAICT alternative names mean there's only one set of dates applying
> to the Name of the Place.
That's right, but if you want you can create a Poznan for each date
range that it was Polish, and Posen for the German periods. That will
probably work well for the city, but not for the region, because the
region may have been much bigger in German times, so for that it's more
than a rename.

regards,

Enno


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Re: more Place problems - what to do about intermittent existence?

Douglas Bainbridge
On 13/02/16 18:06, Enno Borgsteede wrote:

> Doug,
>> AFAICT alternative names mean there's only one set of dates applying
>> to the Name of the Place.
> That's right, but if you want you can create a Poznan for each date
> range that it was Polish, and Posen for the German periods. That will
> probably work well for the city, but not for the region, because the
> region may have been much bigger in German times, so for that it's more
> than a rename.
>
> regards,
>
> Enno
>
That's my idea, too.  But I don't know how far one should go
to redefine regions with the same name, in order to keep
track of frequent boundary changes. I'm afraid I'm taking a
rough-and-ready approach by only taking the large
alterations into account.

regards,

Doug


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Re: more Place problems - what to do about intermittent existence?

enno
Hi Doug,
> That's my idea, too.  But I don't know how far one should go to
> redefine regions with the same name, in order to keep track of
> frequent boundary changes. I'm afraid I'm taking a rough-and-ready
> approach by only taking the large alterations into account.
I understand, and in my own tree, I avoid the issue by sticking to
Gramps 3.4.9. I can then simply use Poznan, Poland in one place, and
Posen, Prussia or Posen, Germany in another.

On the long term, it may be much nicer to use a web service for this,
and only create your own locations when there is none on the web.

cheers,

Enno


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Re: more Place problems - what to do about intermittent existence?

Nick Hall
In reply to this post by Simon C. Tremblay
On 13/02/16 17:28, Simon C. Tremblay wrote:
The smallest location does not move, only the entity enclosing it.

Yes.  That is a sensible way of thinking about it.  I suppose that the geographical centre of a town could move slightly as its boundaries change.



You could set a time period for "enclosed by": for example, create "Poznan Voivodeship" and Poznan (city) and have the city enclosed by "Poznan Voivodeship" from 1320 to 1793, then the city becomes enclosed by Prussia from 1793 to 1921 (or even , South Prussia, Duchy of Warsaw, Grand Duchy of Warsen) then back to 
"Poznan Voivodeship" from 1921 to 1939, "Reichsgau Wartheland" from 39-45, etc. (thanks Wikipedia for the province's timeline)

Yes.  A place can be linked to the enclosing place by more than one link.  So Poznan can be enclosed by Poznan Voivodeship both between 1320-1793 and again between 1921-1939.  There is no need to create duplicate places for this reason.



For my part, I find it too early in my research to track all these territorial changes.  (maybe it's a choice I will regret later...) I'm still focusing on getting proper citations and finding ancestors and date/places of birth here in Québec.


I suggest that you start with what you need and then expand it later.  For example, if an event occurred in Detroit when it was in the province of Quebec, then you could record it as such.  Later if you had an event that occurred when Detroit was in Michigan, then you could create another link and add date ranges.


Nick.


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Re: more Place problems - what to do about intermittent existence?

Nick Hall
On 14/02/16 18:31, Douglas Bainbridge wrote:

You could set a time period for "enclosed by": for example, create "Poznan Voivodeship" and Poznan (city) and have the city enclosed by "Poznan Voivodeship" from 1320 to 1793, then the city becomes enclosed by Prussia from 1793 to 1921 (or even , South Prussia, Duchy of Warsaw, Grand Duchy of Warsen) then back to 
"Poznan Voivodeship" from 1921 to 1939, "Reichsgau Wartheland" from 39-45, etc. (thanks Wikipedia for the province's timeline)

Yes.  A place can be linked to the enclosing place by more than one link.  So Poznan can be enclosed by Poznan Voivodeship both between 1320-1793 and again between 1921-1939.  There is no need to create duplicate places for this reason.


<snip>


That's the way I first did it and it's pretty straightforward, I agree.
The snag is with the enclosures of the enclosures:
Suppose
Voivodeship Q at <date1> belongs to Place X;
Voivodeship Q at <date2> belongs to Place Y;
Voivodeship Q at <date3> belongs to Place Z

Locality A is enclosed by Voivodeship Q but belongs only to Place Y.
The <enclosed by> tree will show locality A apparently belonging to all three, X,Y and Z.

It's possible to sort it out correctly if all the dates are recorded, but it's a bit of a mess.
The enclosure tree is a lot clearer if you've defined
Voivodeship Q1=Voivodeship Q at <date1>
Voivodeship Q2=Voivodeship Q at <date2>
Voivodeship Q3=Voivodeship Q at <date3>

This snapshot of Poznan tree illustrates how Q1,Q2,Q3 is clearer than Q <date1><date2><date3>, even without the complications.

Using three different places is valid, but may make it more difficult to manage notes, images and filters for the combined place.  However, this might not cause a problem for you.

Alternatively, we could just provide another view of the tree.  At the moment places are displayed for all dates.  We could exclude places that are not reachable from the base of the tree.


Nick.


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Re: more Place problems - what to do about intermittent existence?

Douglas Bainbridge
In reply to this post by Nick Hall
On 13/02/16 19:56, Nick Hall wrote:
<snip>
Yes.  A place can be linked to the enclosing place by more than one link.  So Poznan can be enclosed by Poznan Voivodeship both between 1320-1793 and again between 1921-1939.  There is no need to create duplicate places for this reason.


<snip>

That's the way I first did it and it's pretty straightforward, I agree.
The snag is with the enclosures of the enclosures:
Suppose
Voivodeship Q at <date1> belongs to Place X;
Voivodeship Q at <date2> belongs to Place Y;
Voivodeship Q at <date3> belongs to Place Z

Locality A is enclosed by Voivodeship Q but belongs only to Place Y.
The <enclosed by> tree will show locality A apparently belonging to all three, X,Y and Z.

It's possible to sort it out correctly if all the dates are recorded, but it's a bit of a mess.
The enclosure tree is a lot clearer if you've defined
Voivodeship Q1=Voivodeship Q at <date1>
Voivodeship Q2=Voivodeship Q at <date2>
Voivodeship Q3=Voivodeship Q at <date3>

This snapshot of Poznan tree illustrates how Q1,Q2,Q3 is clearer than Q <date1><date2><date3>, even without the complications.

Doug
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Re: more Place problems - what to do about intermittent existence?

Douglas Bainbridge
In reply to this post by Nick Hall
On 14/02/16 18:56, Nick Hall wrote:
On 14/02/16 18:31, Douglas Bainbridge wrote:

You could set a time period for "enclosed by": for example, create "Poznan Voivodeship" and Poznan (city) and have the city enclosed by "Poznan Voivodeship" from 1320 to 1793, then the city becomes enclosed by Prussia from 1793 to 1921 (or even , South Prussia, Duchy of Warsaw, Grand Duchy of Warsen) then back to 
"Poznan Voivodeship" from 1921 to 1939, "Reichsgau Wartheland" from 39-45, etc. (thanks Wikipedia for the province's timeline)

Yes.  A place can be linked to the enclosing place by more than one link.  So Poznan can be enclosed by Poznan Voivodeship both between 1320-1793 and again between 1921-1939.  There is no need to create duplicate places for this reason.


<snip>


That's the way I first did it and it's pretty straightforward, I agree.
The snag is with the enclosures of the enclosures:
Suppose
Voivodeship Q at <date1> belongs to Place X;
Voivodeship Q at <date2> belongs to Place Y;
Voivodeship Q at <date3> belongs to Place Z

Locality A is enclosed by Voivodeship Q but belongs only to Place Y.
The <enclosed by> tree will show locality A apparently belonging to all three, X,Y and Z.

It's possible to sort it out correctly if all the dates are recorded, but it's a bit of a mess.
The enclosure tree is a lot clearer if you've defined
Voivodeship Q1=Voivodeship Q at <date1>
Voivodeship Q2=Voivodeship Q at <date2>
Voivodeship Q3=Voivodeship Q at <date3>

This snapshot of Poznan tree illustrates how Q1,Q2,Q3 is clearer than Q <date1><date2><date3>, even without the complications.

Using three different places is valid, but may make it more difficult to manage notes, images and filters for the combined place.  However, this might not cause a problem for you.

You're probably right; it may well be more of a headache.


Alternatively, we could just provide another view of the tree.  At the moment places are displayed for all dates.  We could exclude places that are not reachable from the base of the tree.


Nick.

Would that produce a tree like Q1,Q2,Q3 with their dates? That would be ideal, I think.

Doug


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Re: more Place problems - what to do about intermittent existence?

Nick Hall
On 14/02/16 19:13, Douglas Bainbridge wrote:
> Would that produce a tree like Q1,Q2,Q3 with their dates? That would
> be ideal, I think.

I'm not quite sure what you want.

When displaying a city, regions it is enclosed by would be displayed
with dates.  These dates would then be used to exclude some bigger
regions in the next level.


Nick.




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Re: more Place problems - what to do about intermittent existence?

TJMcK
In reply to this post by Douglas Bainbridge
I "almost" am able to wind my brain around this discussion. (Thanks Doug for the attached jpg, which really helped me.) I know that I'm dealing with this same issue -- right now my name w/ assoc dates is a mess and will need cleaning once I decide on a "standard".  For me, it would be nice if the gazetteer gramplets would also follow a particular "standard" when importing place names.  Doug, are you manually entering each of these places w/ dates?

OT:  I'd really like to see some more detailed help for place management...  since there currently seems to be little info on how to deal with complex situations like this, I'm assuming that there is still some ongoing development -- details that still have to be ironed out.  And so, thankfully there is this forum for hashing out my own problems.  Frankly, I am still over-whelmed with the task of adding/editing my places, so that they work as Gramps intends them to work. (But, I do believe in the direction that Gramps has gone with place management -- it has made me aware of the complexity of place names and how many, many of my sources do not correctly or clearly define a place name - resulting in confusion and ambiguity, for those who read their writings.)  But damn, this process of learning how to deal with these complex places is not easy for an old guy like me!
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Re: more Place problems - what to do about intermittent existence?

Douglas Bainbridge
In reply to this post by Nick Hall
On 14/02/16 19:41, Nick Hall wrote:

> On 14/02/16 19:13, Douglas Bainbridge wrote:
>> Would that produce a tree like Q1,Q2,Q3 with their dates?
>> That would be ideal, I think.
>
> I'm not quite sure what you want.
>
> When displaying a city, regions it is enclosed by would be
> displayed with dates.  These dates would then be used to
> exclude some bigger regions in the next level.
>
>
> Nick

Sorry, I'm not entirely sure how what you describe would
work out; but as far as I can see it would - can we try that
out?

Doug

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Re: more Place problems - what to do about intermittent existence?

Douglas Bainbridge
In reply to this post by TJMcK
On 14/02/16 19:41, TJMcK wrote:

> I "almost" am able to wind my brain around this discussion. (Thanks Doug for
> the attached jpg, which really helped me.) I know that I'm dealing with this
> same issue -- right now my name w/ assoc dates is a mess and will need
> cleaning once I decide on a "standard".  For me, it would be nice if the
> gazetteer gramplets would also follow a particular "standard" when importing
> place names.  Doug, are you manually entering each of these places w/ dates?
>
> OT:  I'd really like to see some more detailed help for place management...
> since there currently seems to be little info on how to deal with complex
> situations like this, I'm assuming that there is still some ongoing
> development -- details that still have to be ironed out.  And so, thankfully
> there is this forum for hashing out my own problems.  Frankly, I am still
> over-whelmed with the task of adding/editing my places, so that they work as
> Gramps intends them to work. (But, I do believe in the direction that Gramps
> has gone with place management -- it has made me aware of the complexity of
> place names and how many, many of my sources do not correctly or clearly
> define a place name - resulting in confusion and ambiguity, for those who
> read their writings.)  But damn, this process of learning how to deal with
> these complex places is not easy for an old guy like me

Tim,

Yes, it's all going in manually, because I'm  converting a
3.4 database (Enno knows all about that) to a proper 4.2 one.
I wouldn't lose much sleep over place management at the
moment, because as you've been able to see from various
discussions on the mailing list, problems still need to be
ironed out - not so much with the structure but with how
it's to be presented clearly to, and employed by, users.
It will certainly deserve a Wiki article eventually.

If I might make a suggestion, it might be worthwhile first
trying to sort it out in your own mind, say drawing a
diagram on paper, how the various entities are related,
along the lines of the diagram in
http://gov.genealogy.net/item/show/KLAEDAKO05NR. I've found
it a lot easier transferring that to gramps than trying to
construct a complex tree in gramps from cold, and much less
likely to get one error leading to another.

Best of luck!

regards,

Doug

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Re: more Place problems - what to do about intermittent existence?

Douglas Bainbridge
In reply to this post by Douglas Bainbridge
On 15/02/16 10:54, Douglas Bainbridge wrote:
On 14/02/16 19:41, Nick Hall wrote:
On 14/02/16 19:13, Douglas Bainbridge wrote:
Would that produce a tree like Q1,Q2,Q3 with their dates? 
That would be ideal, I think.
I'm not quite sure what you want.

When displaying a city, regions it is enclosed by would be 
displayed with dates.  These dates would then be used to 
exclude some bigger regions in the next level.


Nick
Sorry, I'm not entirely sure how what you describe would 
work out; but as far as I can see it would - can we try that 
out?

Doug


The revised version of Enclosed By and Enclosing gramplets is really very nice now - many thanks, Nick! - and incidentally cures some other minor problems I was having with the display.
If I understand you correctly it can be further tweaked to deal with "Q<1>2><3>" situations satisfactorily - I look  forward to seeing this.
There's only one outstanding bug (as far as I'm concerned): the blank Place References (bug report  #9251). If this could be looked at as well my cup will be overflowing! 

Doug  

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Re: more Place problems - what to do about intermittent existence?

Douglas Bainbridge
On 15/02/16 16:35, Douglas Bainbridge wrote:
On 15/02/16 10:54, Douglas Bainbridge wrote:
On 14/02/16 19:41, Nick Hall wrote:
On 14/02/16 19:13, Douglas Bainbridge wrote:
Would that produce a tree like Q1,Q2,Q3 with their dates? 
That would be ideal, I think.
I'm not quite sure what you want.

When displaying a city, regions it is enclosed by would be 
displayed with dates.  These dates would then be used to 
exclude some bigger regions in the next level.


Nick
Sorry, I'm not entirely sure how what you describe would 
work out; but as far as I can see it would - can we try that 
out?

Doug


The revised version of Enclosed By and Enclosing gramplets is really very nice now - many thanks, Nick! - and incidentally cures some other minor problems I was having with the display.
If I understand you correctly it can be further tweaked to deal with "Q<1>2><3>" situations satisfactorily - I look  forward to seeing this.
There's only one outstanding bug (as far as I'm concerned): the blank Place References (bug report  #9251). If this could be looked at as well my cup will be overflowing! 

Doug  



Nick, is there any progress on Q<1><2><3>?
Were you able to have a look at the test tree I uploaded to the bug tracker to show blank Place references?

Doug

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Re: more Place problems - what to do about intermittent existence?

Nick Hall
On 26/02/16 13:17, Douglas Bainbridge wrote:
> Nick, is there any progress on Q<1><2><3>?

No.  The Date object will need a method to return the intersection
between two date ranges.  I haven't written this yet.


> Were you able to have a look at the test tree I uploaded to the bug
> tracker to show blank Place references?

Yes, but I couldn't reproduce the problem.  The place references display
correctly for me.


Nick.


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Re: more Place problems - what to do about intermittent existence?

Douglas Bainbridge
On 26/02/16 13:41, Nick Hall wrote:

> On 26/02/16 13:17, Douglas Bainbridge wrote:
>> Nick, is there any progress on Q<1><2><3>?
>
> No.  The Date object will need a method to return the
> intersection between two date ranges.  I haven't written
> this yet.
>
>
>> Were you able to have a look at the test tree I uploaded
>> to the bug tracker to show blank Place references?
>
> Yes, but I couldn't reproduce the problem.  The place
> references display correctly for me.
>
>
> Nick
Thanks for looking  - I'm foxed.

Doug

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Re: more Place problems - what to do about intermittent existence?

Douglas Bainbridge
In reply to this post by Nick Hall
On 26/02/16 13:41, Nick Hall wrote:

> On 26/02/16 13:17, Douglas Bainbridge wrote:
>> Nick, is there any progress on Q<1><2><3>?
>
> No.  The Date object will need a method to return the
> intersection between two date ranges.  I haven't written
> this yet.
>
>
>> Were you able to have a look at the test tree I uploaded
>> to the bug tracker to show blank Place references?
>
> Yes, but I couldn't reproduce the problem.  The place
> references display correctly for me.
>
>
> Nick

Nick, would you mind revisiting bug #9251? I'm pretty sure
there is a "bug" of sorts; and if so, I'll want to submit a
feature request for a Tool to fill in blank Place Titles.

Thanks,

Doug

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