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"Christening" / "Baptism"

Peter Kidd
[Newbie here -- apologies if I am misunderstanding.]

For what it's worth, the relevant Oxford English Dictionary definitions are:
"The action or ceremony of baptizing, baptism",
and
"The action or ceremony of baptizing; immersion of a person in water,
or application of water by pouring or sprinkling, as a religious rite,
symbolical of moral or spiritual purification or regeneration, and, as
a Christian ordinance, betokening initiation into the Church",
respectively.

In other words, the terms are interchangeable (this is the explicit
opinion of the Church of England: see
http://www.churchofengland.org/weddings-baptisms-funerals/baptism-confirmation/baptism/frequently-asked-questions.aspx),
but for the purposes of data integrity in GRAMPS it is probably better
to stick to one term or the other. (I think that the two terms were
included in the GEDCOM standard because the designers wanted to allow
users to use whichever term they prefer.)

Personally, I was baptised as an infant (this is therefore an accurate
historical fact), but I am not a Christian so it seems
misleading/imprecise to say that I have been Christened.

Peter


> Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2011 15:25:18 +0200
> From: Rogier Visser <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Gramps-users] Baptism vs. Christening
> To: [hidden email]
> Message-ID:
>        <[hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Wouldn't this suggest that in the various reports, ages of christened
> individuals at death should be given as "at least xx years old"?
> In Detailed Ancestors Report, christened individuals without
> birth-event (because it is unknown) do not get 'at-least' ages
> printed, which I think, would be a good thing to do.
>
>
>
> On 1 August 2011 09:23, Nicholas Robinson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On Mon, 2011-08-01 at 09:38 +1000, Stephen George wrote:
>>> On 1/08/2011 4:01 AM, Marc-Andre Hermanns wrote:
>>> > Dear all,
>>> >
>>> > I am a German GRAMPS user, and was wondering whether there is a
>>> > difference between "Baptism" and "Christening". Both Events are
>>> > possible, and I was wondering, whether I am recording everything correctly.
>>> >
>>> > Cheers,
>>> > Marc-Andre
>>> >
>>>
>>> ?From my point of view, I always considered a Christening to be of an
>>> baby (who cannot make up own mind), where the parents promise to bring
>>> up the child following Gods ways.
>>>
>>> A Baptism was once a person become old enough to make up their own mind
>>> to follow Christ they would get baptized as a public statement of
>>> commitment and to show their faith.
>>>
>>> So in one case (Christening ) the parents offer the child to God, in the
>>> other case (Baptism) a person offers themselves to God.
>>>
>>> So in my eyes they are two very different things. Buts that's just one
>>> point of view.
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>> Steve
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Got Input? ? Slashdot Needs You.
>>> Take our quick survey online. ?Come on, we don't ask for help often.
>>> Plus, you'll get a chance to win $100 to spend on ThinkGeek.
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>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Gramps-users mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users
>>
>> For what it's worth. Steve has exactly described what I have always
>> understood.
>>
>> Nick
>>
>> --
>> SAVE PAPER - THINK BEFORE YOU PRINT!
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Re: "Christening" / "Baptism"

Billie Walsh
In the Anglican Tradition an infant is baptized soon after birth. This
isn't a decision of the infant. At someplace around the age of fifteen,
sooner or later for some, the person goes through "Confirmation". That
is a decision of the individual and is when they officially join the church.

Confirmation would correspond with Baptism in many other traditions.

On 08/02/2011 08:56 AM, Peter Kidd wrote:

> [Newbie here -- apologies if I am misunderstanding.]
>
> For what it's worth, the relevant Oxford English Dictionary definitions are:
> "The action or ceremony of baptizing, baptism",
> and
> "The action or ceremony of baptizing; immersion of a person in water,
> or ap
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Got Input? ? Slashdot Needs You.
>>>> Take our quick survey online. ?Come on, we don't ask for help often.
>>>> Plus, you'll get a chance to win $100 to spend on ThinkGeek.
>>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/slashdot-survey
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Gramps-users mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-usersplication of water by pouring or sprinkling, as a religious rite,
> symbolical of moral or spiritual purification or regeneration, and, as
> a Christian ordinance, betokening initiation into the Church",
> respectively.
>
> In other words, the terms are interchangeable (this is the explicit
> opinion of the Church of England: see
> http://www.churchofengland.org/weddings-baptisms-funerals/baptism-confirmation/baptism/frequently-asked-questions.aspx),
> but for the purposes of data integrity in GRAMPS it is probably better
> to stick to one term or the other. (I think that the two terms were
> included in the GEDCOM standard because the designers wanted to allow
> users to use whichever term they prefer.)
>
> Personally, I was baptised as an infant (this is therefore an accurate
> historical fact), but I am not a Christian so it seems
> misleading/imprecise to say that I have been Christened.
>
> Peter
>
>
>> Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2011 15:25:18 +0200
>> From: Rogier Visser<[hidden email]>
>> Subject: Re: [Gramps-users] Baptism vs. Christening
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Message-ID:
>>         <[hidden email]>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>
>> Wouldn't this suggest that in the various reports, ages of christened
>> individuals at death should be given as "at least xx years old"?
>> In Detailed Ancestors Report, christened individuals without
>> birth-event (because it is unknown) do not get 'at-least' ages
>> printed, which I think, would be a good thing to do.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 1 August 2011 09:23, Nicholas Robinson<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>>> On Mon, 2011-08-01 at 09:38 +1000, Stephen George wrote:
>>>> On 1/08/2011 4:01 AM, Marc-Andre Hermanns wrote:
>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>
>>>>> I am a German GRAMPS user, and was wondering whether there is a
>>>>> difference between "Baptism" and "Christening". Both Events are
>>>>> possible, and I was wondering, whether I am recording everything correctly.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Marc-Andre
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ?From my point of view, I always considered a Christening to be of an
>>>> baby (who cannot make up own mind), where the parents promise to bring
>>>> up the child following Gods ways.
>>>>
>>>> A Baptism was once a person become old enough to make up their own mind
>>>> to follow Christ they would get baptized as a public statement of
>>>> commitment and to show their faith.
>>>>
>>>> So in one case (Christening ) the parents offer the child to God, in the
>>>> other case (Baptism) a person offers themselves to God.
>>>>
>>>> So in my eyes they are two very different things. Buts that's just one
>>>> point of view.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>> Steve
>>>
>>> For what it's worth. Steve has exactly described what I have always
>>> understood.
>>>
>>> Nick


--

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for dinner.
Liberty is a well-armed lamb."     - Benjamin Franklin -

_ _...  ..._ _
_._  ._  .....  ._..  ...  .._


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Re: "Christening" / "Baptism"

Gerald Britton-2
On Tue, Aug 2, 2011 at 11:21 AM, Billie Walsh <[hidden email]> wrote:
> In the Anglican Tradition an infant is baptized soon after birth. This
> isn't a decision of the infant. At someplace around the age of fifteen,
> sooner or later for some, the person goes through "Confirmation". That
> is a decision of the individual and is when they officially join the church.
>
> Confirmation would correspond with Baptism in many other traditions.


Really?  Without water, there's no Baptism.  I've never hear of
Confirmation being equivalent to, or a substitute for Baptism.


>
> On 08/02/2011 08:56 AM, Peter Kidd wrote:
>> [Newbie here -- apologies if I am misunderstanding.]
>>
>> For what it's worth, the relevant Oxford English Dictionary definitions are:
>> "The action or ceremony of baptizing, baptism",
>> and
>> "The action or ceremony of baptizing; immersion of a person in water,
>> or ap
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> Got Input? ? Slashdot Needs You.
>>>>> Take our quick survey online. ?Come on, we don't ask for help often.
>>>>> Plus, you'll get a chance to win $100 to spend on ThinkGeek.
>>>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/slashdot-survey
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Gramps-users mailing list
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-usersplication of water by pouring or sprinkling, as a religious rite,
>> symbolical of moral or spiritual purification or regeneration, and, as
>> a Christian ordinance, betokening initiation into the Church",
>> respectively.
>>
>> In other words, the terms are interchangeable (this is the explicit
>> opinion of the Church of England: see
>> http://www.churchofengland.org/weddings-baptisms-funerals/baptism-confirmation/baptism/frequently-asked-questions.aspx),
>> but for the purposes of data integrity in GRAMPS it is probably better
>> to stick to one term or the other. (I think that the two terms were
>> included in the GEDCOM standard because the designers wanted to allow
>> users to use whichever term they prefer.)
>>
>> Personally, I was baptised as an infant (this is therefore an accurate
>> historical fact), but I am not a Christian so it seems
>> misleading/imprecise to say that I have been Christened.
>>
>> Peter
>>
>>
>>> Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2011 15:25:18 +0200
>>> From: Rogier Visser<[hidden email]>
>>> Subject: Re: [Gramps-users] Baptism vs. Christening
>>> To: [hidden email]
>>> Message-ID:
>>>         <[hidden email]>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>>
>>> Wouldn't this suggest that in the various reports, ages of christened
>>> individuals at death should be given as "at least xx years old"?
>>> In Detailed Ancestors Report, christened individuals without
>>> birth-event (because it is unknown) do not get 'at-least' ages
>>> printed, which I think, would be a good thing to do.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 1 August 2011 09:23, Nicholas Robinson<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 2011-08-01 at 09:38 +1000, Stephen George wrote:
>>>>> On 1/08/2011 4:01 AM, Marc-Andre Hermanns wrote:
>>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am a German GRAMPS user, and was wondering whether there is a
>>>>>> difference between "Baptism" and "Christening". Both Events are
>>>>>> possible, and I was wondering, whether I am recording everything correctly.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>> Marc-Andre
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ?From my point of view, I always considered a Christening to be of an
>>>>> baby (who cannot make up own mind), where the parents promise to bring
>>>>> up the child following Gods ways.
>>>>>
>>>>> A Baptism was once a person become old enough to make up their own mind
>>>>> to follow Christ they would get baptized as a public statement of
>>>>> commitment and to show their faith.
>>>>>
>>>>> So in one case (Christening ) the parents offer the child to God, in the
>>>>> other case (Baptism) a person offers themselves to God.
>>>>>
>>>>> So in my eyes they are two very different things. Buts that's just one
>>>>> point of view.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers
>>>>> Steve
>>>>
>>>> For what it's worth. Steve has exactly described what I have always
>>>> understood.
>>>>
>>>> Nick
>
>
> --
>
> "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for dinner.
> Liberty is a well-armed lamb."     - Benjamin Franklin -
>
> _ _...  ..._ _
> _._  ._  .....  ._..  ...  .._
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> BlackBerry&reg; DevCon Americas, Oct. 18-20, San Francisco, CA
> The must-attend event for mobile developers. Connect with experts.
> Get tools for creating Super Apps. See the latest technologies.
> Sessions, hands-on labs, demos & much more. Register early & save!
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/rim-blackberry-1
> _______________________________________________
> Gramps-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users
>



--
Gerald Britton

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Re: "Christening" / "Baptism"

Stein Erik Berget-2
On Tue, 02 Aug 2011 17:38:00 +0200, Gerald Britton  
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Tue, Aug 2, 2011 at 11:21 AM, Billie Walsh <[hidden email]>  
> wrote:
>> In the Anglican Tradition an infant is baptized soon after birth. This
>> isn't a decision of the infant. At someplace around the age of fifteen,
>> sooner or later for some, the person goes through "Confirmation". That
>> is a decision of the individual and is when they officially join the  
>> church.
>>
>> Confirmation would correspond with Baptism in many other traditions.
>
>
> Really?  Without water, there's no Baptism.  I've never hear of
> Confirmation being equivalent to, or a substitute for Baptism.

A Confirmation is a confirmation of  the Baptism/Christening, so without a  
Baptism/Christening you can't be Confirmed (Or what the verb should be...)  
So at least in Lutheran tradition you would need to have a adult  
Baptism/Christening before your Confirmation.
--
Stein Erik Berget

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Re: "Christening" / "Baptism"

Peter Kidd
In reply to this post by Gerald Britton-2
>> Confirmation would correspond with Baptism in many other traditions.
>
>
> Really?  Without water, there's no Baptism.  I've never hear of
> Confirmation being equivalent to, or a substitute for Baptism.

I do not think confirmation can be said to "correspond with Baptism"
except that the typical age at which people are confirmed in one
religion, and baptised in another, may be similar.

The OED defines confirmation as "A rite administered to baptized
persons in various Christian Churches; formerly called ‘bishoping’."
i.e. you have to be baptised before you can be confirmed.

Peter

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Re: "Christening" / "Baptism"

Billie Walsh
In reply to this post by Gerald Britton-2
The point is that the infant is baptized with water and sealed with oil.
However, the infant cannot make that decision for him/herself.
Confirmation is the point that the person decides for him/herself that
he/she wishes to join the community of the church and accept Jesus as
his/her Saviour.

The belief is that no one may enter heaven unless they are baptized. A
child that dies before baptism will not be allowed into heaven. That's
why they baptize them soon after birth.

In other traditions a person is baptized when they make a conscious
decision to accept Jesus as Saviour and join the community of the church.

Do you see the correlation now?

[ My youngest daughter was born a "blue baby". Within an hour the priest
at our church was at the hospital with a vial of Holy Water to baptize
her. She was on pure oxygen for two weeks in the hospital and wore a
heart/lung monitor for a year after that. ]

On 08/02/2011 10:38 AM, Gerald Britton wrote:

> On Tue, Aug 2, 2011 at 11:21 AM, Billie Walsh<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>> In the Anglican Tradition an infant is baptized soon after birth. This
>> isn't a decision of the infant. At someplace around the age of fifteen,
>> sooner or later for some, the person goes through "Confirmation". That
>> is a decision of the individual and is when they officially join the church.
>>
>> Confirmation would correspond with Baptism in many other traditions.
>
>
> Really?  Without water, there's no Baptism.  I've never hear of
> Confirmation being equivalent to, or a substitute for Baptism.
>
>


--

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for dinner.
Liberty is a well-armed lamb."     - Benjamin Franklin -

_ _...  ..._ _
_._  ._  .....  ._..  ...  .._


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Re: "Christening" / "Baptism"

Doug Morrison-Cleary
To reiterate what I said earlier--and avoiding issues of theology and
the differences between different Christian churches--from an
historical and anthropological perspective, the water rite of
initiation in the Christian context is called 'baptism'. It is called
this no matter the age or the consent of the person being initiated.

The word 'christening' is an anomaly in the broad sweep of Christian
tradition and was always understood officially as an alternative term
to 'baptism'. What is even more anomalous is the occasional use these
days of the term to describe a 'naming ceremony'. Yes, christening is
related to the tradition of giving a child their 'Christian' name
(first name) during baptism, but it is 'christ-ening' precisely because
of the Christian context of the baptismal rite. It reflects more than
just the giving of a Christian name and includes a sense of becoming a
Christian--even of becoming a 'little Christ', if you like.

While we are free to use whatever term we wish with our own data, I
encourage everyone to use 'baptism' as it is the more accurate and
consistent term. This will also help ensure the easy convertibility of
data from one person to another.

Peace,
Doug

++++
The Rev'd Doug Morrison-Cleary, OSL
Anglican Church of Australia
(having also served Episcopal, Presbyterian, Lutheran and United
Methodist churches in the US and in the Uniting Church in Australia)

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