ships, ports, embarkation?

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ships, ports, embarkation?

paul womack
The most convenient way to represent a ship is by a Place. This makes it a genuine
entity, against which one can store notes, photographs etc.

The Place can then be used multiple times for embarkation, disembarkation,
and against multiple People. It clearly does not have a fixed lat/long...

This seems obvious and natural, at least to me, and allows the ship to be used
against Military Service, Residence, Immigration, Emmigration and Travel events etc.

However, it presents a problem. Is a Person embarks on a given
ship (a Place) at a given port (another Place), one would wish to associate
two Places with a single event, which can't be done.

Can anyone suggest a better approach?

  BugBear

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Re: ships, ports, embarkation?

Douglas Bainbridge
On 23/06/14 09:59, paul womack wrote:

> The most convenient way to represent a ship is by a Place. This makes it a genuine
> entity, against which one can store notes, photographs etc.
>
> The Place can then be used multiple times for embarkation, disembarkation,
> and against multiple People. It clearly does not have a fixed lat/long...
>
> This seems obvious and natural, at least to me, and allows the ship to be used
> against Military Service, Residence, Immigration, Emmigration and Travel events etc.
>
> However, it presents a problem. Is a Person embarks on a given
> ship (a Place) at a given port (another Place), one would wish to associate
> two Places with a single event, which can't be done.
>
> Can anyone suggest a better approach?
>
>    BugBear

I don't offer this as a better way, just one suggested to me
by Craig Treleaven for a different, but maybe related, problem.
How do you deal with a ship's doctor making voyages on
several routes, often the same route on different vessels,
and sometimes different routes on the same vessel?

The idea is to create the following types of event: port of
call, ships' departure, ship's return.
Each event has its own Date and Place; and the Description
gives the ship's name, e.g. "ship Oceania".
That makes it possible to attach media and notes to the
event - and also, which was my main interest - to animate
the voyages in Geography View.
It seems to work quite well.

I don't know if there's anything there you could adapt to
your problem.

Doug




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Re: ships, ports, embarkation?

ACProctor
Of course, if you have "hierarchical events" (as in
http://parallax-viewpoint.blogspot.com/2013/11/eventful-genealogy.html) then
you have another way of handling this scenario. The parent event has the
ship as its Place, and there are two child events - one marking embarkation
and one marking disembarkation, each with its own Place.

    Tony Proctor

----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Bainbridge" <[hidden email]>
To: "paul womack" <[hidden email]>; "Gramps-Users"
<[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2014 12:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Gramps-users] ships, ports, embarkation?


> On 23/06/14 09:59, paul womack wrote:
>> The most convenient way to represent a ship is by a Place. This makes it
>> a genuine
>> entity, against which one can store notes, photographs etc.
>>
>> The Place can then be used multiple times for embarkation,
>> disembarkation,
>> and against multiple People. It clearly does not have a fixed lat/long...
>>
>> This seems obvious and natural, at least to me, and allows the ship to be
>> used
>> against Military Service, Residence, Immigration, Emmigration and Travel
>> events etc.
>>
>> However, it presents a problem. Is a Person embarks on a given
>> ship (a Place) at a given port (another Place), one would wish to
>> associate
>> two Places with a single event, which can't be done.
>>
>> Can anyone suggest a better approach?
>>
>>    BugBear
>
> I don't offer this as a better way, just one suggested to me
> by Craig Treleaven for a different, but maybe related, problem.
> How do you deal with a ship's doctor making voyages on
> several routes, often the same route on different vessels,
> and sometimes different routes on the same vessel?
>
> The idea is to create the following types of event: port of
> call, ships' departure, ship's return.
> Each event has its own Date and Place; and the Description
> gives the ship's name, e.g. "ship Oceania".
> That makes it possible to attach media and notes to the
> event - and also, which was my main interest - to animate
> the voyages in Geography View.
> It seems to work quite well.
>
> I don't know if there's anything there you could adapt to
> your problem.
>
> Doug
>
>
>
>
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> Find What Matters Most in Your Big Data with HPCC Systems
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users 


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Re: ships, ports, embarkation?

paul womack
Tony Proctor wrote:
> Of course, if you have "hierarchical events" (as in http://parallax-viewpoint.blogspot.com/2013/11/eventful-genealogy.html) then you have another way of handling this scenario. The parent event has the ship as its Place, and there are two child events - one marking embarkation and one marking disembarkation, each with its own Place.

In gramps:

I've been considering making the ship a person; then I could share
the event with it, and give the ship a "role". Thus one could also
(if the data were rich enough) track the ship's movement as well as the human's.

If I make the ship a Place, I end up needing two events,
one to couple the person to the port, one to couple the person to the ship.

  BugBear

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Re: ships, ports, embarkation?

ACProctor
That's bending the product to fit new functionality though Paul.

I recently added Group entities (e.g. regiments, clubs, classes,
organisations) to my data model as full-blooded participants in an Events
(see
www.parallaxview.co/familyhistorydata/data-model/more-case-studies#CSGroups).
Louis Kessler suggest it might be done with a special type of pseudo-Person,
although a pseudo-Place might be a better fit (a Person can move from
place-to-place, just as they might join-and-leave different Groups) but it
is still another case of bending a product rather than properly addressing
the requirement.

    Tony Proctor

----- Original Message -----
From: "paul womack" <[hidden email]>
To: "Tony Proctor" <[hidden email]>; "Douglas Bainbridge"
<[hidden email]>; "Gramps-Users"
<[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2014 4:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Gramps-users] ships, ports, embarkation?


> Tony Proctor wrote:
>> Of course, if you have "hierarchical events" (as in
>> http://parallax-viewpoint.blogspot.com/2013/11/eventful-genealogy.html)
>> then you have another way of handling this scenario. The parent event has
>> the ship as its Place, and there are two child events - one marking
>> embarkation and one marking disembarkation, each with its own Place.
>
> In gramps:
>
> I've been considering making the ship a person; then I could share
> the event with it, and give the ship a "role". Thus one could also
> (if the data were rich enough) track the ship's movement as well as the
> human's.
>
> If I make the ship a Place, I end up needing two events,
> one to couple the person to the port, one to couple the person to the
> ship.
>
>  BugBear


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Re: ships, ports, embarkation?

derHeinzi
> although a pseudo-Place might be a better fit (a Person can move from
> place-to-place, just as they might join-and-leave different Groups) but it
> is still another case of bending a product rather than properly addressing
> the requirement.

Another way of "bending" the product, and in my opinion more brain compatible, would be a "mobile place" having residential events, in case of a ship in the different ports where it stayed, which could be shared with a person.

Just a thought. Have not tried.
 

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Re: ships, ports, embarkation?

Peter G
I went looking thru the archives for the list (well, my saved e-mails).  We had a discussion about this a while back under the subject line of traveling salesman.  One suggestion with regards ships and seamen was a custom event "Port of Call".  In the description put the name of the ship.  Location is where the ship pulled in.  The event is attached to appropriate people. 

Peter


From: Heinz Brinker <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Gramps-users] ships, ports, embarkation?

> although a pseudo-Place might be a better fit (a Person can move from
> place-to-place, just as they might join-and-leave different Groups) but it
> is still another case of bending a product rather than properly addressing
> the requirement.

Another way of "bending" the product, and in my opinion more brain compatible, would be a "mobile place" having residential events, in case of a ship in the different ports where it stayed, which could be shared with a person.

Just a thought. Have not tried.





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Re: ships, ports, embarkation?

Nick Hall
In reply to this post by derHeinzi
On 29/06/14 15:11, Heinz Brinker wrote:
>> although a pseudo-Place might be a better fit (a Person can move from
>> >place-to-place, just as they might join-and-leave different Groups) but it
>> >is still another case of bending a product rather than properly addressing
>> >the requirement.
> Another way of "bending" the product, and in my opinion more brain compatible, would be a "mobile place" having residential events, in case of a ship in the different ports where it stayed, which could be shared with a person.
>
> Just a thought. Have not tried.

At the moment, only people and families can have events.  I don't like
the idea of places having events and events having places.

For events that happen on a ship when the sip is not in port, create a
place for the ship.  These are events where you do not know the exact
geographic location.  Births and deaths onboard a ship are a good
example of this.

To record the movement of a ship, use Departure, Arrival and Port of
Call events.  Put the name of the ship in the event description field.

Nick.


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Re: ships, ports, embarkation?

paul womack
In reply to this post by ACProctor
Tony Proctor wrote:
> still another case of bending a product rather than
> properly addressing the requirement.

Since genealogy blends into history, and history is the story of the world,
to "properly address" all requirments is simply not going to happen.

A little flexible interpretation of attributes and notes can go a long way.

As long as Gramps can address my common requirments directly,
and my uncommon requirments with some bending, my actual purpose
is served.

   BugBear

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Re: ships, ports, embarkation?

paul womack
In reply to this post by derHeinzi
Heinz Brinker wrote:
>> although a pseudo-Place might be a better fit (a Person can move from
>> place-to-place, just as they might join-and-leave different Groups) but it
>> is still another case of bending a product rather than properly addressing
>> the requirement.
>
> Another way of "bending" the product, and in my opinion more brain compatible, would be a "mobile place" having residential events, in case of a ship in the different ports where it stayed, which could be shared with a person.

This would also model those houses that are moved (ever watched Massive Moves?)

TBH, this is not a big issue for my family tree :-)

A more interesting (and real) concept might be a military headquarters, or county
centre of administration, or company head office.

They are things, which have a location, but they move.

  BugBear


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Re: ships, ports, embarkation?

ACProctor
In reply to this post by paul womack
You inserted the "all" there Paul. There are specific entities and
requirements that are commonn to everyone's events -- past & present, near &
far. Properly addressing them is something fundmental for genealogy, and for
history in general. Unfortunately, some of these have been left behind, not
because they're difficult to address but because much of genealogy still
thinks it is all about family trees, lineage, and vital events.

I have to point out that the Gramps team have been working hard on
internationalising certain concepts, and the locale of the user interface.
This has to be applauded because there are other parts of the industry that
absolutely believe that a product only has to serve their own US-focused
requirements and should not be over-complicated by addressing the uncommon
requirements of other cultures.

:-)

    Tony Proctor

----- Original Message -----
From: "paul womack" <
[hidden email]>
To: "Tony Proctor" <
[hidden email]>; "Douglas Bainbridge"
<
[hidden email]>; "Gramps-Users"
<
[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, June 30, 2014 10:42 AM
Subject: Re: [Gramps-users] ships, ports, embarkation?


> Tony Proctor wrote:
>> still another case of bending a product rather than
>> properly addressing the requirement.
>
> Since genealogy blends into history, and history is the story of the
> world,
> to "properly address" all requirments is simply not going to happen.
>
> A little flexible interpretation of attributes and notes can go a long
> way.
>
> As long as Gramps can address my common requirments directly,
> and my uncommon requirments with some bending, my actual purpose
> is served.
>
>   BugBear
>

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Re: ships, ports, embarkation?

enno
Hi Tony,
This has to be applauded because there are other parts of the industry that
absolutely believe that a product only has to serve their own US-focused
requirements and should not be over-complicated by addressing the uncommon
requirements of other cultures.
To my regret, it is not just the industry. I clearly remember that in the early stages of Better GEDCOM, users that defended formatted citations didn't get much opposition there, and even today, there are way too many users that defend completely useless crap like templates based on evidence explained.

Tamura Jones wrote here

http://www.tamurajones.net/GenealogyCitationStandard.xhtml

that EE is awfully Americentric, and Gramps developers' experience shows that even the Yates templates, which are a relatively small subset of this, are quite impossible to translate, simply because of the sheer number of different elements in that.

It seems that many users don't realize the importance of your paragraph 1.2 in

http://fhiso.org/files/cfp/cfps63.pdf

and keep supporting EE as a good idea. And from an international point of view I can only say that templates by themselves are a good idea, but EE is not. EE is for savants.

For places, similar issues can arise, but when places are represented as a comma separated list, most elements can easily be recognized. There is an international issue there too, which has been taken care of in GedcomX, but not (yet) in Gramps.

Many users outside Gramps seem to think that it is normal to use English country names, and many times the same for states and provinces. It's not, and in that case, it is not only awfully Americentric, but it's awfully English centric too.

cheers,

Enno


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Re: ships, ports, embarkation?

ACProctor
I haven't blogged about a citation standard yet Enno because I'm still trying to find a way of incoporating discursive notes. I've seen too many ideas that view formatted citations as some sort of formulaic process, and where the end product is some very specific string with precise punctuation. This is definitely crap. Even Mills has said that citations are an art, not a science. The same source will not be cited in precisely the same way by two researchers - even when they aren't including discursive notes on the reliability/objectivity/etc of the source.
 
Re: Places - I absolutely believe that comma-separated lists are merely a depiction of a hierarchy and not the hierarchy itself. When implemented correctly, foreign-language places names are not a problem (see http://parallax-viewpoint.blogspot.com/2013/08/a-place-for-everything.html).
 
    Tony
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, June 30, 2014 8:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Gramps-users] ships, ports, embarkation?

Hi Tony,
This has to be applauded because there are other parts of the industry that
absolutely believe that a product only has to serve their own US-focused
requirements and should not be over-complicated by addressing the uncommon
requirements of other cultures.
To my regret, it is not just the industry. I clearly remember that in the early stages of Better GEDCOM, users that defended formatted citations didn't get much opposition there, and even today, there are way too many users that defend completely useless crap like templates based on evidence explained.

Tamura Jones wrote here

http://www.tamurajones.net/GenealogyCitationStandard.xhtml

that EE is awfully Americentric, and Gramps developers' experience shows that even the Yates templates, which are a relatively small subset of this, are quite impossible to translate, simply because of the sheer number of different elements in that.

It seems that many users don't realize the importance of your paragraph 1.2 in

http://fhiso.org/files/cfp/cfps63.pdf

and keep supporting EE as a good idea. And from an international point of view I can only say that templates by themselves are a good idea, but EE is not. EE is for savants.

For places, similar issues can arise, but when places are represented as a comma separated list, most elements can easily be recognized. There is an international issue there too, which has been taken care of in GedcomX, but not (yet) in Gramps.

Many users outside Gramps seem to think that it is normal to use English country names, and many times the same for states and provinces. It's not, and in that case, it is not only awfully Americentric, but it's awfully English centric too.

cheers,

Enno


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Re: ships, ports, embarkation?

Douglas Bainbridge
On 30/06/14 22:30, Tony Proctor wrote:

> I haven't blogged about a citation standard yet Enno because I'm still trying to find a way of incoporating discursive notes. I've seen too many ideas that view formatted citations as some sort of formulaic process, and where the end product is some very specific string with precise punctuation. This is definitely crap. Even Mills has said that citations are an art, not a science. The same source will not be cited in precisely the same way by two researchers - even when they aren't including discursive notes on the reliability/objectivity/etc of the source.
>
> Re: Places - I absolutely believe that comma-separated lists are merely a depiction of a hierarchy and not the hierarchy itself. When implemented correctly, foreign-language places names are not a problem (see http://parallax-viewpoint.blogspot.com/2013/08/a-place-for-everything.html).
>
>      Tony
>    ----- Original Message -----
>    From: Enno Borgsteede
>    To: [hidden email]
>    Sent: Monday, June 30, 2014 8:15 PM
>    Subject: Re: [Gramps-users] ships, ports, embarkation?
>
>
>    Hi Tony,
>
>      This has to be applauded because there are other parts of the industry that
>      absolutely believe that a product only has to serve their own US-focused
>      requirements and should not be over-complicated by addressing the uncommon
>      requirements of other cultures.
>
>    To my regret, it is not just the industry. I clearly remember that in the early stages of Better GEDCOM, users that defended formatted citations didn't get much opposition there, and even today, there are way too many users that defend completely useless crap like templates based on evidence explained.
>
>    Tamura Jones wrote here
>
>    http://www.tamurajones.net/GenealogyCitationStandard.xhtml
>
>    that EE is awfully Americentric, and Gramps developers' experience shows that even the Yates templates, which are a relatively small subset of this, are quite impossible to translate, simply because of the sheer number of different elements in that.
>
>    It seems that many users don't realize the importance of your paragraph 1.2 in
>
>    http://fhiso.org/files/cfp/cfps63.pdf
>
>    and keep supporting EE as a good idea. And from an international point of view I can only say that templates by themselves are a good idea, but EE is not. EE is for savants.
>
>    For places, similar issues can arise, but when places are represented as a comma separated list, most elements can easily be recognized. There is an international issue there too, which has been taken care of in GedcomX, but not (yet) in Gramps.
>
>    Many users outside Gramps seem to think that it is normal to use English country names, and many times the same for states and provinces. It's not, and in that case, it is not only awfully Americentric, but it's awfully English centric too.
>
>    cheers,
>
>    Enno
>

Can I ask for some advice on how to use the 4.1 hierarchical
place system? How does one handle the notorious muddle of
English counties getting redrawn every few decades? - it
suggests that a particular place (lat/long) should be in
different hierarchies according to the date.

I have a lot of stuff in 3.4, for example, with the place
inconsistently recorded as in Durham, County Durham,
Northumberland, Tyne and Wear, where the county name
depended on whether I was able to take place information
from a contemporary or historical record or had to find the
place using circumstantial information to locate it with
Google Map, giving it an anachronistic county name.

Doug


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Re: ships, ports, embarkation?

enno
Hi Doug,
> Can I ask for some advice on how to use the 4.1 hierarchical
> place system? How does one handle the notorious muddle of
> English counties getting redrawn every few decades? - it
> suggests that a particular place (lat/long) should be in
> different hierarchies according to the date.
I personally see the system that we have in 4.1 as a first step, and
hope that we can expand it to support date dependent paths some time. I
only have a few ancestors from the UK, and should probably use England
when I refer to locations in the era when they lived there, but I
recognize the problem for my own country too. I partly avoid it now by
not upgrading to 4.1, and omitting province names and municipalities,
especially because the changes in the latter are probably quite as bad
as those of counties in England.
> I have a lot of stuff in 3.4, for example, with the place
> inconsistently recorded as in Durham, County Durham,
> Northumberland, Tyne and Wear, where the county name
> depended on whether I was able to take place information
> from a contemporary or historical record or had to find the
> place using circumstantial information to locate it with
> Google Map, giving it an anachronistic county name.
Same here, and maybe even worse, because I also import parts of trees
from Ancestry and FamilySearch, where local names have been
Americanized, either by the site, or by relatives overseas. The only
advice that I can give right now is to avoid Google maps, and use sites like

http://www.werelate.org/wiki/Special:Search/Place

or

http://gov.genealogy.net/search/index

which are both maintained by smart developers/genealogists. And as long
as there is no time dependent hierarchy in Gramps, try to stick to the
hierarchy that suits your research best. And what that is depends,
because currently the place title is exported to GEDCOM too, I think,
making things even more difficult when you upload to sites overseas,
like in the US, or on the continent, which some in the UK seem to call
Europe, as if the UK is not part of it.

cheers,

Enno


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Re: ships, ports, embarkation?

Sebastian Schubert
Hi,

Am 01.07.2014 13:43, schrieb Enno Borgsteede:

[Place hierarchy]

> The only
> advice that I can give right now is to avoid Google maps, and use sites like
>
> http://www.werelate.org/wiki/Special:Search/Place
>
> or
>
> http://gov.genealogy.net/search/index
>
> which are both maintained by smart developers/genealogists. And as long
> as there is no time dependent hierarchy in Gramps, try to stick to the
> hierarchy that suits your research best.

The hierarchy is time-dependent, isn't it? This could be better visible
and I would like to have a time-dependent Type field (see
http://sourceforge.net/p/gramps/mailman/message/32486700/), but
nonetheless, the data structure is available and one can choose a date
or time span for each hierarchy relationship. Please correct me if I am
wrong here.

Sebastian

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Re: ships, ports, embarkation?

enno
Hi Sebastian,
> The hierarchy is time-dependent, isn't it? This could be better
> visible and I would like to have a time-dependent Type field (see
> http://sourceforge.net/p/gramps/mailman/message/32486700/), but
> nonetheless, the data structure is available and one can choose a date
> or time span for each hierarchy relationship.
You're right. I don't use 4.1 here, because I have multiple issues with
the new system, most of which are quite hard to resolve, because they
either lead to conflicts with other translators, or require extra code,
for which I do not have the energy right now.

A test with master code shows that the time-dependency is there indeed.
Thanks for correcting me.

regards,

Enno


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Re: ships, ports, embarkation?

Peter (chamdo4ever)
In reply to this post by enno
On Tue, Jul 1, 2014 at 7:43 AM, Enno Borgsteede <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I personally see the system that we have in 4.1 as a first step, and
> hope that we can expand it to support date dependent paths some time.

That really would solve things very nicely. I'm still on 4.0.4, but
that would definitely be a big upgrade for me.

Often, I just list cities and villages on there own without going
further as it caused too many battles between me and my Father. He was
insistent on listing the name of the place at the time of the event
(ie: John Doe was born in such-and-such a place in such-and-such
Principality in the Kingdom of Germany in Holy Roman Empire, etc.),
while I thought it gave a better perspective to list the place as it
currently is today.

What you suggest with date dependent paths would solve that issue
entirely.... though admittedly, I would still have to look up what the
location was called on that specific date -- very labor intensive!

Best wishes,

Peter

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Re: ships, ports, embarkation?

enno
Hi Peter,
> On Tue, Jul 1, 2014 at 7:43 AM, Enno Borgsteede <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I personally see the system that we have in 4.1 as a first step, and
>> hope that we can expand it to support date dependent paths some time.
> That really would solve things very nicely. I'm still on 4.0.4, but
> that would definitely be a big upgrade for me.
For me too. Note that, contrary to what I thought when I wrote this, the
date dependent hierarchy has already been built in 4.1. I should have
noticed that, because it was mentioned earlier, but it doesn't change
what I really wrote, which is that we have no support for date dependent
paths.

The problem that I see now, and one of the reasons why I stay with 3.4,
is that the paths that I might use must be dynamic, and not editable.
That is because for my needs paths must adapt to
a. The date of an event,
b. The audience of a report,
c. The destination of a GEDCOM file,
and so forth.

And that is not an easy thing to accomplish.

regards,

Enno


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Re: ships, ports, embarkation?

enno
In reply to this post by ACProctor
Hi Tony,
Re: Places - I absolutely believe that comma-separated lists are merely a depiction of a hierarchy and not the hierarchy itself. When implemented correctly, foreign-language places names are not a problem (see http://parallax-viewpoint.blogspot.com/2013/08/a-place-for-everything.html).
Indeed, and strange enough it looks like we have to live with comma-separated lists for both citations and places now, given that there is no progress on citation elements in GedcomX, and John Ralls explained that these lists are the best that could be achieved in GedcomX for places too. That leaves us with lists for both, because that is what you get when you download citations from the FS tree.

And given the way progress works, it looks like we may have to live with it, and I have already adapted by pasting FS formatted citation strings into citation notes.

cheers,

Enno


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